Dublin's Domination of Leinster

Something I'd like to throw out there for debate. With Dublin's two wins yesterday, they have now completed their third Leinster treble in six seasons. In fact, if you remove our underage Double from last year, Dublin have only failed to win a grand total of THREE Leinster competitions since 2009 - Longford's 2010 minor, Wexford's 2011 U21 and Meath's Grand Theft Auto effort on Louth in 2010.

I'm just wondering, have we actually reached the tipping point where Dublin's massive advantage in resources and playing numbers has now left other counties in Leinster unable to compete. Reading Eugene McGee today, he talks about this issue, and comes to the somewhat questionable conclusion that if Dublin win eight or more the next 10 Leinsters, then we can say there is a problem.

Fair enough - only, can anyone genuinely see them not winning eight out of the next ten? I certainly can't. Right now, they appear to have an inexhaustible supply of top players, coaches and backroom staff. Over the past two seasons, they have beaten their nearest rivals in Leinster, Kildare and Meath, by a combined total of 32 points. So, I'm going to disagree with Mr McGee and say that there is a problem right now, and it should be addressed. Getting them to play games prior to the Leinster final at away venues would be a start.

When Kilkenny dominated hurling for such a long period everybody thought it would be to the detriment of every other county and hurling itself. It didn't, it actually forced other counties to raise the bar and we now have a very exciting and level playing field where any one of 6 counties have genuine chances of winning Liam.

Thing is and it may be a cliché Dublin play Dublin's type of football, Donegal play their type, Tyrone, Armagh etc. Mainly because they are managed by natives, people who understand their game, their structures, their nuances and politics. Cluxton actually thanked their county board yesterday and all they had done for them, and he hoped the repaid their faith in them, like would you ever hear that in Kildare?

We try to copy and feck up everybody else style, we have a disjoint between teams and county board and we cannot agree to a native managing Kildare. Until that is all solved and we get selfish we will continue to look in awe. William Wallace anybody :p

Could'nt agree more, I have been saying this for some time now and the gap is like the grand canyon,

*Sponships and inducements from the likes of AIG and Toyota with cars and group trips abroad, not sure of the revenue, but I believe it's enormous.
*Every match at home. (someone on Newstalk yesterday said that Bernard Brogan has never played a championship match outside of Croke Park, while the Leitrim captain has never played there, yet they are in the same competition).
* 1 million population catchment.
* Irish Times confirmed last month that when Jason Sherlock became the coach of the U14's, he became the 54th full time coach.
* Professional in everything but name.

Look, it's not really Dublin's fault, they are just good at what they do in developing their county teams and dominating in every age group from U14's up, but the GAA will need to take a long hard look at this to ensure the game doesn't decay in the rest of the country because of this, just look at the Scottish Premiership, Celtic dominating, even the diehards up there are becoming disillusioned and attendances are falling dramatically. and I'm just agreeing with the point raised, I dont know what the solution is.

Some good points there. I agree it's not Dublin's fault, they are only producing the best teams they can and fair play to them.

Stonecold, I would disagree with you somewhat on the Kilkenny point, and this also applies to Kerry's period of dominance in the 70s and 80s also - neither county had such a blatantly massive advantage in resources and playing numbers. It's one thing to play catch up, it's another thing entirely when you literally CAN'T catch up because it's not logistically feasible.

My proposal is firstly that they start playing the likes of Kildare and Meath in Newbridge and Navan prior to the Leinster final. Now, I know some people in both counties will carp about missing the games, but if we want start being competitive again, it's something that has to be considered. Personally, I'd be happy watching that one game on TV if it meant we had a better chance of reaching a Leinster final.

And, over time, I think the dreaded "split the county up" option will also have to be considered, even though the likes of Tommy Carr are always whinging that this is all about Kildare and Meath being out to get Dublin and we should be perfectly happy to accept our beatings and Dublin having such a massive advantage.

Well, I think it's not going to fly in the long run, and splitting them up will most likely have to be considered at some point.

But your solution is it's not Dublin's fault but lets penalise them anyways. Mine is sort our shit out and we will compete.

No - my solution is it's a fault in the system so let's rectify that. And two Dublin teams would still be well able compete for All Irelands anyway so it's hardly that severe a penalty.

My belief is that even if we got our shit together financially and structurally - which unfortunately isn't going to happen because the county board just make it up from season to season - Dublin would still win.

Ergo, the problem needs to be solved centrally.

Couldn't disagree with you more. To be the best you have to beat the best, not a diluted version of the best. May as well scrap Leinster if that's the solution because it would be shallow victory.

Hmm... we'll have to agree to disagree so! I suppose we can reconvene in a decade, but my belief is that if things continue the way the way they are, Dublin will dominate for the next ten years having already owned Leinster for the previous ten.

I agree you have to compete with the best, but you can't do that unless it's a level playing field. And my belief is that right now, it isn't. But I'd certainly be v interested to hear other people's views. And I do think the time has arrived for this issue to be seriously debated.

I don't think it's just a matter of us getting things right. The advantages they have would still overwhelm us.

It is no secret that the rise of Leinster rugby scared the hell out of the GAA and so they decided to pump money into Dublin to stave off any threat of Rugby taking hold in certain parts. When you have population, monetary and home field advantage in an amateur sport you will only end up with one thing. A totally dominant County.

It's no coincidence that since the financial problems emerged in Kildare we have gone backwards at a rate of knots. When we spent the money other leading Counties did from 2009 to 2011 we were a match for anyone. We may not have beat them but we would hold our own and not be embarrassed.

If Kildare were able to employ  25  or 30 full time coaches you can bet there would be an improvement. But we can't afford them and the GAA won't help us fund them either.

The Leinster championship is a dead competition now. Who in their right mind would bring a family to a game to see your County destroyed and pay through the nose for the privilege. Attendances will drop even more and the GAA will have got a dominant Dublin but the rest of Leinster will be a wasteland.

Lean times ahead.

But how do you explain the likes of Donegal, Mayo & Kerry who are more than capable of competing with them with less population and resources. I think Donegal will win Sam this year because their game plan will stifle Dublins. Why can't we?

That is another serious point Rex raises - in all honesty, would anyone want to pay 40 quid (and obviously significantly more if you're bringing kids) just to see your county get hockeyed by 15 points-plus? I know I wouldn't, and I have no doubt that's also going to become a serious problem if things continue the way they are.

And frankly, the GAA would want to be concerned, because over the past 30 years or so Kildare and Meath are two counties who have always brought huge crowds to Croke Park.

Stonecold - I don't think anyone is going to beat Dublin this year!

Its not just Dublin Dominating their Province.. Kerry have won 3 of the last 4 Munsters.. Donegal 3 of the last 4 Ulsters and Mayo have won 4 in a row..
I agree with SC re: Donegal, and especially how McGuiness seems to have transformed that Group of Players.. I recall being at an Under 14 Tournament in Armagh a number of Years ago, and Kildare played Tyrone, and their style of play was a carbon copy of their Seniors.. I spoke to One of their Mentors afterwards, and He explained that all Teams were Coached in that style.

unless Meath or Kildare get back into the top 4/6 in the country Dublin will continue their dominance, the fact that both are well off the pace have helped the dubs . Re style of play, it hasn't worked for Tyrone as the game is continually changing and what works now won't by the time young 14 yr olds are playing senior

Dublin's weakness that needs to be exploited, and Meath did it a few times yesterday is the ball in over their full back line, it caused havoc. The Dublin full back line cannot deal with the high ball, but the remaining 12 players are exceptional. Donegal have the game plan, are physically stronger and the forwards to exploit this Dublin weakness. We have the bear in the square but no game plan to play him properly and our possession retention at times is second rate.

I think Donegal are the one team left in the championship who could cause Dublin the proverbial "problems", but do I think they would beat them? No.

This issue is discussed on Second Captains today and I would recommend for people to listen. Shane Curran essentially makes all the points I make, and feels the time has come to address the issue.

When Dublin win the All Ireland this year, they will have done back to back trebles of League, provincial, AI. I mean, has that even been done before?! Maybe it was done once, back in the forties or something.

I think this debate is only going to grow from now on.

HauntedGraffiti wrote:

I think Donegal are the one team left in the championship who could cause Dublin the proverbial "problems", but do I think they would beat them? No.

This issue is discussed on Second Captains today and I would recommend for people to listen. Shane Curran essentially makes all the points I make, and feels the time has come to address the issue.

When Dublin win the All Ireland this year, they will have done back to back trebles of League, provincial, AI. I mean, has that even been done before?! Maybe it was done once, back in the forties or something.

I think this debate is only going to grow from now on.

Hard to disagree haunted. There has been plenty of great teams over the course of history but not sure uf there has ever been 1 team seemingly so far ahead of pack in terms of ability, numbers and most importantly resources.

I agree with Stonecold in relation to sorting ourselves out. We have a large youthful population and it will continue to grow mainly due to proximity to the capital, which can only be good for sports and competitiveness in sporting competitions. Basically we need to copy their model and start with the youngest and build from there. There are signs of this happening, with last year some glimmers of hope emerging with the three leinsters we won, and a lot of talented classy footballers unearthed. There is serious work being done and it will need to be continued. Obviously money is what is really needed to allow this to happen. Where it will come from I have not any clue. The large Businesses in the county and fundraisers are a start anyway!!!
Time for us all to do the lotto ....................

It is an amateur sport but one county is clearly operating at a professional level and have the resources to do so. The amount of full time coaches, sponsorship and all matches in their own stadium guarentees that they will dominate for many years to come.
Compare the ease of travel that their players enjoy to training each day with public transport while many others in big counties like Kerry and Donegal would have to drive huge distances after a days work.
Counties like Kerry and Kilkenny dominated in the past due to their wonderful tradition and a willingness of former players to get involved at underage. This is an area that Kildare are falling down in with so few of the top players from the 97-00 team involved. Two who have contributed hugely in recent years are not even natives!
There are some areas we can improve on at CB level to make us more competitive but it looks certain that Dublin will continue to dominate. They are not just beating teams but hammering them at all levels which is sad for those teams involved.

HauntedGraffiti wrote:

When Dublin win the All Ireland this year, they will have done back to back trebles of League, provincial, AI. I mean, has that even been done before?! Maybe it was done once, back in the forties or something.

Kerry did it 1932. That appears to be the only time.

Regarding their greater resources, this is something the GAA can somewhat address and without penalising Dublin. If Dublin have 54 fill time coaches serving a population of almost 1.3 million then, it stands to reason that Kildare should have 9 to serve our population of 210,000. This is something that Croke Park should sort out; if counties can't afford to employ the same level of coaches then the divide will grow greater. Commercial income is something that would be far harder to address though without actively taking money off of Dublin and giving it to other counties. Perhaps the talk of some pooling of sponsorship should be looked at.

I am deeply concerned though about the GAA actively and unfairly helping Dublin: all games at home and allowing them access to train in Croke Park while not allowing other teams the same luxuries. I am appalled at their minors being allowed to train in Croke Park twice while ours weren't even let in once. That is shocking carry on.

Speaking of Kerry, clearly they are the only comparable county in terms of provincial and national success. Combining the 4 main grades, senior, junior, minor & under 21, Kerry have won 183 provincial titles of a total of 343 available. That's 53%. Dublin have won 116 in Leinster from 353, 32.5%. If you take away the Junior, given that some counties don't enter a team every year, it's 54% for Kerry and 36.4% for Dublin.

If you take any given period of years, say the last ten years, and you have either county winning a greater proportion of the provincial competitions, then I think there's a problem that the provincial councils and Croke Park have to address. Kerry have won six of the last ten Munster seniors, one of the last ten Munster U21s, five of the last ten Munster minors, and five of the last ten Munster juniors. With the exception of the U21s all those are typical of their historical rate of success. Dublin have now won nine of the last ten Leinster seniors, five of the last ten U21s, and four of the last ten minors. I'm not including the juniors as Dublin don't always enter a team, they haven't entered it in four of the last ten years. This level of success is clearly far greater than their historical rate of success.

In my opinion Dublin's dominance of Leinster, is more significant than Kerry's dominance of Munster given that there aretwice the number of counties in Leinster. The historical stats show that Dublin have always dominated Leinster but have now dominated it to a greater extent in recent years than would have been historically typical. Unlike Eugene McGee, I think this is a problem now, and not in ten years time.

murof wrote:

It is an amateur sport but one county is clearly operating at a professional level and have the resources to do so. The amount of full time coaches, sponsorship and all matches in their own stadium guarentees that they will dominate for many years to come.
Compare the ease of travel that their players enjoy to training each day with public transport while many others in big counties like Kerry and Donegal would have to drive huge distances after a days work.
Counties like Kerry and Kilkenny dominated in the past due to their wonderful tradition and a willingness of former players to get involved at underage. This is an area that Kildare are falling down in with so few of the top players from the 97-00 team involved. Two who have contributed hugely in recent years are not even natives!
There are some areas we can improve on at CB level to make us more competitive but it looks certain that Dublin will continue to dominate. They are not just beating teams but hammering them at all levels which is sad for those teams involved.

Agree with most of the points there and I'm glad someone pointed the whole area of Kilkenny especially. The Dubs were invested in heavily but they used that investment very well. I know they have lots of full time coaches but how many do Kilkenny have in terms of being gainfully employed by the Cats.
The Dubs have the luxury of paying the likes of Jayo but in Kilkenny there are lads who do those jobs for free. It's just one point to note that resources can't always be looked at in terms of monetary value.
It's not all about money but Dublin's financial might will leave all the other counties trailing for years. The GAA will have to redress this somehow but in the meantime Kildare have to get their own house in order and try to run things as professionally as the Dubs. That means no squabbles between CB and our fundraising arm which is hardly going to have the corporate crew knocking down the door to give us money.
On the plus we have a top class training facility and our own gym but our finances are always teetering on the edge. That really shouldn't be as we are a sport mad county and that madness was never really harnessed. In 98 there was money flying around and we had nothing to really show for it in terms of development.
If the GAA were worried about Leinster rugby in Dublin maybe they could notice that Shane Horgan/ Devin Toner are Meath men while Kildare have Heaslip, Marty Moore, McFadden, Johne Murphy and I know we have another who slips my mind.
But why should the GAA throw money at us when they can't be fully sure they get bang for their buck? The Dubs got their shit together to be fair. The hurling all came out of Dublin Colleges teams competing against the likes of St Kieran's.

Have to say lads no one is going overboard here and this is a very enjoyable thread...

was told that dublin gaa have box in croke park where 3 people are looking at match on tv then they radio to sideline with info on game , also told that they 3 people in stand at offaly v dublin minor game with radios passing on info to sideline

"Kildare minor boss Brendan Hackett believes the disparity in terms of population and resources means Dublin will continue to dominate within the province"

Hackett also says in the piece, "You can take it that Dublin will win eight or nine of the next 10 Leinster titles."

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/future-is-bleak-for-dublin-s-leinster-football-rivals-1.1873715

He also does mention the blueprint over ten years. Do we have something like that? Is there a top to bottom plan. We have hawkfield and plenty of lads going in and out of the development squads but then there is a disconnect and no follow through to U21 and senior.
As was mentioned Tyrone and Kerry play their brand if football right the way up. I think we have good coaches in the county but the GAA are in a quandary with the Dubs. They are the goose that lay the golden eggs so they can't just give them nothing. Other counties want a bigger share of the money the boys in blue generate. If I were a Dub I wouldn't be happy with that.
We can sit here moaning or just get our shit together and do it. Also I don't know why the idea of a junior/ intermediate championship is so out there when it is perfectly acceptable at club level. It's like Cappagh giving out crap that they don't get to play Moorefield in the championship.

Like some of the lads eluded to here Kildare and other counties can sit back and moan about Dublin or we can try to get our camp in order and start challenging them, no matter what happens they can still only play 15 players on the pitch at any one time! Hold on maybe someone will suggest only allowing them have 14 players or something?

I think all counties have to really up the ante and make optimum use of what they have. At that point the GAA can step in and help.
I can't remember who said it but I know years ago one GAA official said there was too much money being spent on concrete. Prime example is Offaly right now. I heard Vinny Claffey recently on radio saying that Whelehan and McDonnell both wanted the minor job but ended up with the senior ones. Then they got no resources whatsoever as the CB were too busy paying for OConnor Park which will never get a crowd while their teams are in bits.