Leinster Championship 2016

May as well get a thread started.

The great news is I've fixed our tactical problems.

I'm going with the following formation to play Wexford.  In truth we may crawl over the line by playing the same archaic man-for-man 6-2-6 formation as was SO successful in Div 3 but I'm convinced we need to build a defensive backbone to give us any chance of climbing back to respectability in the next couple of years.

Therefore I would scrap this "expansive" game that apparently Cian is so fond of and go for a pragmatic defensive approach that we can refine over time. We have two games before we potentially meet Dublin and even when we lose that we'd likely meet another strong county in the last 12.  I don't want to see us slaughtered again like against Dublin and Kerry last year.  I do keep thinking back to the Cork game and the attractive attacking game we put on that wonderful night in Thurles but I think that may have been down as much to their lack of intensity / interest as us being brilliant. The evidence is that was a one-off.

So I would go with an 8-3-3 formation with 2 free players protecting the full back line and also 2 of the 3 midfielders protecting the half back line when we don't have possession. When we do have possession we need to break at pace.

I'm making the optimistic assumption that Dan Flynn and Eoin Doyle are available for Wexford.  If not you can view this as a team for the semi final when we reach that (if?).

I'm putting Kevin Feely in full back as we have tried various others without ever really shutting up shop back there. I'm not convinced he'd do the job either but I'd like a more physical presence in there.  In front of him I'd have Morgan back in a shot as a sweeper and Bolton doing the same job alongside him.

Flynn and Moolick would be my defensive midfielders but both are also good breaking forward. Moolick is considered to be too slow by some apparently but he has some engine to get himself forward and into scoring positions (like yesterday) or back clearing balls off our own goal line (like yesterday).  Dan's pace will be critical.  I'd also have Cribbin as a third midfielder although one who role is more attack-minded, utilising his ball carrying skills.  

Slightly ahead of him I'd have Eoghan Flats, whose work-rate is very under-rated and is a good man to pick up ball around the middle / half-forward line and bring the full forward line into play.  

Close to goal I'd have Niall Kelly and Neil Flynn.   Tough job for them in this system but both are able to win ball and score.

Team:

                                      Donnellan

       Kelly                           Feely                    Lyons

                    M.O'Flaherty                  Bolton

        Hyland                       Doyle                 O'Donoghue

                   Dan Flynn       Moolick           Paul Cribbin

                                       

                                      E. O' Flaherty


                         Kelly                                 N. Flynn

I think with a little tactical adjustment we can get to the Leinster final. Cian needs to be a little more pragmatic and bite the bullet by playing  more defensively. Add in Morgan and possibly another defender and tighten it up, should get us over Wexford and possibly Westmeath. Our scoring power should see to that.

Basically I'm not thinking beyond Wexford anyway so any thoughts of Dublin are pointless.

I think there needs to be as much of plan regarding the 15 that finish the match as there is with the 15 that start it - obviously some things will change depending on how the game goes but there needs to be a bit of forward planning put into what players can make the right type of impact. Aside from the Kerry and Dublin games the last couple of seasons we've been finishing matches stronger than the opposition, even when Meath bet us 2 years ago we dominated them in the second half.

I'd fill the middle 8 with strong runners, if we're going to shore up the defence we need to drop bodies back and considering our kick passing isn't the best we need to be able to break from the back at pace.

Assuming everybody is fit start with;

Donnellan
Kelly, Hyland, Fitzpatrick
Lyons, Morgan Flats, Doyle, O’Donoghue
Feely, Moolick, Cribbin
Dan Flynn, Eoghan Flats,
Kelly, Neil Flynn

And finish with;

Donnellan
Kelly, Hyland, Fitzpatrick
Bolton, Conway, Doyle
Dan Flynn, Moolick, Cribbin
McNally, Eoghan Flats, Leper
Smith, Kelly

It's all well and good working on a defensive setup in training but if we somehow make it to a Leinster final with the same tactical approach we've used all year then the Dubs -15 would be a licence to print money. I don't care if Wexford are a Division 4 side and if Westmeath will be joining them next spring, if we don't go defensive against them then there's not a hope of a new system being met with a fraction of success against Dublin.

I'd love think that by dropping men back in open play that we'll actually create the chance for a few short kickouts. Since Feely caught his first ball against Offaly there hasn't been any other plan other than aiming them at him. On Saturday when the likes of Moolick and Feely were dropping back as spare men to defend Clare freekicks they were running out to midfield as soon as the ball went over, they were back as free men, it's a Kildare kickout, there's no need to be running out to mark an opposition midfielder when you're already free inside your own 21 yard line - stay back and offer an easy option to Donnellan.

I think there's enough pace around the middle in those lineups to be able to work the ball forward quickly, start defensively and gradually get a bit more adventurous as the second half goes on.

It's an interesting one. The defensive personnel we have are the best that's there in the county. We have seen good club performers tried like Liam Healy, Sean Campbell and Eoin Powderly and they didn't make a strong enough case. From the u21s Paul Mescal looks to have what it takes although I'm presuming he was one of the players approached recently and couldn't make the commitment at the moment. Of the others Shea Ryan has long term potential but he is only one year out of minor. Luke Flynn strikes me as more of a natural midfielder.

We do need to take a more pragmatic approach to stop leaking scores but I'm not even sure that flooding more men back behind the ball would make that much of a difference. The blanket defence requires exceptionally disciplined tackling to work effectively and our players don't look capable of this. I would love to see stats on the amount of scoreable frees that Kildare have conceded over the last five years compared to other teams.

If we do go ultra defensive then I think it's hugely important that we have an outlet up front who can make the ball stick when it's sent in. That's the one issue I'd have with your selection there Crofter. For all that I rate both Niall Kelly and Neil Flynn I think they would seriously struggle if they were left isolated up front while being double marked. Daniel Flynn is the one player Kildare have who I believe could carry out that role but he's unlikely to feature in the next game due to his injury.

I can't see Eoin Doyle being ready and Ciaran Fitzpatrick will miss out now as well. I would bring Morgan back in to act as a sweeper. Other than that I can't see too many changes. If Ben McCormack goes well in the next few weeks I would take a punt on him in the forwards.

1. Donnellan
I don't think Corley or McNamara are good enough to displace him.

2. P Kelly
3. Hyland
4. Lyons
Probably the best full back line we have at the moment. They will need a lot more protection.

5. O'Donoghue/Byrne/Houlihan
6. Conway
7. O'Donoghue/Byrne/Houlihan
If Doyle isn't ready I think Conway is a given. Two from O'Donoghue/Byrne/Houlihan on the wings. I wouldn't give up on Houlihan after yesterday and it doesn't appear as if Emmet Bolton is considered a starter anymore.

8. Moolick
9. Feely
The best pairing we have. It's hard to see Daryl Flynn, Mattie Byrne or Paudie O'Neill involved in the summer.

10. Morgan O'Flaherty
11. Paul Cribbin
12. Eoghan O'Flaherty
I'd have Morgan as a sweeper with Paul as a third midfielder. There's maybe a case for putting Bolton at 12 if we were parking the bus.

13. Niall Kelly
14. Ben McCormack
15. Neil Flynn
Have Kelly out beside Eoghan O'Flaherty on the forty with the two young lads inside (granted I think they would struggle if we left them isolated). I'd take a punt on McCormack against Wexford instead of going with Smith, Leper or Dowling. If Daniel Flynn was available I would have him at 14.

I had hopes that we'd make a Leinster final and close the gap on Dublin this year, but after the league campaign I can't see it happening.

There are a few people on here dismissive of the urgent need for an improved defensive system because "if lads aren't trying, it doesn't make any difference", or something. I'm sure what the argument is as it's incoherent, but I'll just say this - let's try keeping things the same and see how we get on against Dublin. After we've suffered a record defeat and the footballing equivalent of a tactical nuclear strike, we might just wish we'd tried something different.

From listening closely to Cian O'Neill's interviews, he seems to be set on pursuing the same course. I wouldn't rule out Kildare using the same flat defensive set-up against Dublin (if we get there), god help us.

I have no doubt that Dublin would beat us no matter what defensive set up we use, but how about we actually try and update our system to the 21st century before throwing our hats at it. If we're not good enough, we're not good enough (personally, I don't think anyone will beat Dublin this year), but walking in like lambs to the slaughter is ridiculous.

For the record, I don't think Cian O'Neill's approach is incompatible with defensive improvement.

I actually think with a good sweeper and a bit of extra defensive cover, we'd have won every game in the league. We nearly did it anyway. I think we could employ that approach against most teams.

However, against the elite Dublin / Kerry / Mayo crew, I would utilise a full-scale Donegal / Tyrone-style counter-attacking set-up, with sweepers, defensive walls and the kitchen sink.

Anything less and I think we're asking for trouble.

Everyone needs to stop looking short-term, O'Neill is not going to fix our problems in one year. Looking at rugby and Connacht under Lam. Year 1 started a skills upgrade program and culture change finished 10th. Year 2 continued skills upgrade and started work on an attacking game plan finished 7th Year 3 Currently the best team in Ireland and in with real chance of Pro 12.

If some of the lads here were Connacht fans Lam would have been gone after Year 1.

We were Division 3 for a reason, our primary goal this year has been achieved "Promotion" our secondary goal is to reach a Leinster final and hopefully a Performance, if we lose that one a qualifier win to put us back in the quarter-finals.

Do people want us seriously go all defensive in a Leinster final and lose like Westmeath last year and we will lose, with all the patronising sh*t that comes with that. Westmeath failed to develop under Cribben and look where they are now. I appreciate our defense needs tightening up but they need to learn how to defend and marry that with an attitude like Tyrone, defensive is a state of mind "thou shall not pass" apart from Doyle and maybe Kelly how many of our defenders have attitude and are pricks to play against. O'Neill will skill them but that attitude has to come from the players.

What's the average age of our team, how many guaranteed starters are over 25? We are badly lack experience.

So you propose we go "expansive" against Dublin ? Good luck with that..

Haunted Graffiti, I completely agree re defensive, when playing elite teams IF we have the opportunity. Fuck it I think we should also be allowed to erect the Great wall of China across our full back line just in case things get nasty..........

I posted about the defensive attitude you have to adopt in the tackling thread with a look at Clare, Atletico Madrid and Connacht's attitudes. Different sports but the same prupose in defense. Starve the opposition of the opportunities they crave.

Dublin and the Hill crave goals. Kildare's biggest weakness is they give away so many goal chances. You can flip both of these on their heads by denying Dublin goal opportunities. When they get frustrated, they get narky and the Hill wears on them. Easier said than done obviously. Only Mayo can match them toe to toe though.

I would set out a team as follows:

4 fullbacks
1 sweeper
3 halfbacks
2 midfielders
1 centre forward
3 full forwards.

There can be no overlaps or one on one situations within 25m of the goals. Concede the wings and corners. Tighten the space. Dublins greatest asset, and our achilles, is the space in Croke Park. Take the space away from them.

Don't engage with them physically or verbally off the ball. Save that energy and pick your moment to launch big hits on them. Close space and massive hits when possible. They are physically stronger and any other messing is just energy sapping, similar to GAA v Aussie rules.

At No.11 you want someone to receive and direct swift & accurate ball to the full forward line. Goals are what you're looking for. Cluxton and McMahon can become liabilities very quickly if you get in their heads. Cluxton is the exception I would make for the verbals and niggle. Nothing thuggish, just wreck the mans head. He'll lash out or do something stupid on the ball.

Ideally, I'd have 2 big men holding the square with another floating around looking to pick up broken ball. This will essentially tie up four Dub defenders and reduce overlaps from them. Kerry and Mayo made the mistake of only putting A O'Shea & Donaghy up there. They should have had A O'Shea & B Moran and Donaghy & T Walsh with Cillan O'Connor and James O'Donoghue lurking around. There would have been panic each time a ball came in. No shooting from 40 metres out and no dropped balls into keepers hands. We're brutal at both. Any broken around the 21 is fought by 3 Kildare shirts against 4 Dubs.

Essentially, you're conceding our half forward line and edges of the wings while competing aggressively inside both scoring zones.

ixus wrote:

I posted about the defensive attitude you have to adopt in the tackling thread with a look at Clare, Atletico Madrid and Connacht's attitudes. Different sports but the same prupose in defense. Starve the opposition of the opportunities they crave.

Dublin and the Hill crave goals. Kildare's biggest weakness is they give away so many goal chances. You can flip both of these on their heads by denying Dublin goal opportunities. When they get frustrated, they get narky and the Hill wears on them. Easier said than done obviously. Only Mayo can match them toe to toe though.

I have been making all of these points throughout the league. I also made them before the U21 Leinster final, and I think they also apply to our minor teams. But I swear to god, it's like you're howling into the abyss. We lost the last two U21 finals, and now we lost the league final.

I honestly don't know what it will take to change it. They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result - Kildare football teams seem intent on proving the theory.

By the way ixus that is a good tactical analysis - in my experience that is usually it's greatest weakness when it comes to trying to get Kildare teams to implement it.

Go and tell Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness that defensive set-ups "don't matter" against teams like Dublin and Kerry. After the laughter had died down, you would get one answer - and it would begin with F.

Crofter wrote:

So you propose we go "expansive" against Dublin ?  Good luck with that..

Nope never said that, preparing a game plan for one game just to keep the score down is madness in my opinion and would be detrimental to the development of the team, it would be a short-term goal for a problem that is not just a Kildare problem but a GAA problem. Kerry went defensive at the week-end and still lost by 11 points, Kerry! Kerry would comfortably dispatch Kildare by 8-12 points if not more.

So rather than worry about a short-term problem we let Cian focus on developing a culture and a system of play that compliments our players and maybe just in 3 years we have a team and a culture similar to McGeeney and Micko's tenures that turn us back into a championship team and top 8 in the country. Similar to what Roscommon and Cavan are currently doing. They should be our current benchmark certainly not Dublin, and not even the Mayo's or Tyrones.

Couldn't agree with you more Dinny.

All this talk about how to play against Dublin. I am more worried about another croke park embarrassement from the likes of Wexford , Offaly, Longford and Westmeath at the moment.

Wow. Been a member here for years and just had to stop reading and posting because of the amount of utter bullsh1t that lads were going on about here but the posts by Dinny and ixus have given me hope.

ixus, excellent analysis, not getting involved in the personnel, a simple post aimed at giving insight and analysis and not about one up man ship. Same from Dinny, except he is talking a lot more about the philosophy and the progression of the team. Both posts probably seem at odds with each other but that is beside the point. It's as much about the process as it is about the answer. Very few have the answer. Jim McGuinness had it short term in his specific case. I'm not sure who else has had it over the last few years.

Even with the pragmatism shown, lads like Crofter have a pop. Grow up lads and start to see the wood from the trees. One management team, in one year, cannot turn us into a team to beat the Dublin monster and who knows if it is even possible over a longer term.

I would go very defensive make ourselves very hard to beat with a packed defense and then play as much speed in our forwards as possible. By the sounds of things Ben McCormack has made a big impression since joining the seniors so i would take a punt on him too with Neil Flynn and Dan Flynn inside too and Niall Kelly a little further out playmaking. The rest of the team i would set up defensively with a counter attacking style.

FearBan, which posters here are annoyed that we wont beat Dublin in Cians first year? All of us are annoyed that we cant beat Clare or Sligo and that we cant tackle or seem to have any idea how to set up defensively. The suggestions on this thread are how to beat Wexford and Westmeath, The only poster to go into detail about how to beat Dublin was Ixus and you thought his analysis was excellent. I agree with Dinny that it will take about 3 years to get us up to a level to compete with Dublin and it will probably be to late for a lot of the current squad.
However is it not reasonable to be disappointed that we look a very similar team to the one that Jason had this time last year? Should we not have seen some improvement tactically considering we have a manager who was involved with 3 top teams at AI final level?
That was good analysis by Ixus alright but its far more applicable to a team like Tyrone than the present Kildare team sadly.

I am not going to go on a rant about it but my hope for this year was to get back to the 2nd best team in Leinster which I don't think we will be, problem to me is simple lack of aggression and leaders who are willing to stand up and just attack the ball / man etc. etc.
At the end of the game on Sat and every game I have been at this year there is not too many lads walking off looking like they have been in a war of a game compare that to the likes of Donegal / Tyrone and even Roscommon this year ..... just too easy and nice ..

#Kildare team up for a nice cup of tea and cucumber or prawn sandwich and maybe a few scones!!!!!

Just on the Dublin Kerry game, I read all the forums and reports and opinions saying the All Ireland is a foregone conclusion.
Then I watched highlights of the game.
Jaysus lads, there was a point in it around the time O'Mahony was sent off, and nearly an hour gone.
I understand why they're favourites, but I wouldn't be handing them Sam yet. It's April.

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Just on the Dublin Kerry game, I read all the forums and reports and opinions saying the All Ireland is a foregone conclusion.
Then I watched highlights of the game.
Jaysus lads, there was a point in it around the time O'Mahony was sent off, and nearly an hour gone.
I understand why they're favourites, but I wouldn't be handing them Sam yet. It's April.

I agree. The sending off was a massive game changer, as dublin then introduced there fresh legs.

The Emperor's New Clothes...........

Are we seriously trying to come up with a masterplan to beat dublin....a few days after losing to Clare? Lads the truth is we have no prospect of beating Dublin in the next 5 years so get comfortable with it.

What we can do is keeping doing the rights things underage, hope hurley and brophy chuck it in down under and hope the GAA belately realise their funding policy is killing competition in intercounty GAA and also hope Cian O'Neill is the real deal. In conclusion we are relying on hope to a large extent for any progress.

Finally the talk that Dublin crave goals and lose the head without them...personally this was true 5-10 years ago but is not now. Dublin score about 2 or 3 goals per game not 4 or 5. They are above average but they are far from just relying on goals to win games. They didn't score a goal in the all ireland final. Who won? Monaghan normally stop them creating goal chances. Who wins those games? Westmeath stopped them scoring goals for a large period of last year's leinster final. Did Dublin get ratty or lose the head?

As for getting inside cluxton's or mcmahon's head..you can do this if its close game mid way through the second half but we'll never be in that position.

Dinny Breen wrote:

Crofter wrote:

So you propose we go "expansive" against Dublin ?  Good luck with that..

Nope never said that, preparing a game plan for one game just to keep the score down is madness in my opinion and would be detrimental to the development of the team, it would be a short-term goal for a problem that is not just a Kildare problem but a GAA problem. Kerry went defensive at the week-end and still lost by 11 points, Kerry! Kerry would comfortably dispatch Kildare by 8-12 points if not more.

So rather than worry about a short-term problem we let Cian focus on developing a culture and a system of play that compliments our players and maybe just in 3 years we have a team and a culture similar to McGeeney and Micko's tenures that turn us back into a championship team and top 8 in the country. Similar to what Roscommon and Cavan are currently doing. They should be our current benchmark certainly not Dublin, and not even the Mayo's or Tyrones.

I never said we should prepare that game plan for one game. Dublin are just the most imminent big team we are due to play and the scariest of them. The last thing I want to do is "have a pop" to use a later poster's words about me as I was a big fan of Cian coming in and haven't lost faith in him yet. But let's just run with the thought that he is developing a style that compliments our players. What evidence is there that a man-for-man 6-2-6 style/formation compliments Kildare players? How has that worked in the past 4 years? How has it worked at minor and under-21 level of late? How has it worked through the National league? Against Clare?

I do agree he seems to want to change the culture and can articulate what that means (unlike his predecessor), but there is no evidence as yet the players are buying into it or changing any of their attitudes. Hopefully it will come.

"Similar to what Roscommon and Cavan are currently doing"... hmmm ..... do you mean what Cavan have done in the last 4 or 5 games or what Cavan built over 3 or 4 years of focus on the most defensive football the country has seen this side of Donegal ? They pragmatically went about making themselves competitive and are only now loosening the chains.

But seeing as they should be our benchmark do you really believe a gung-ho, 1990's style approach of man-for-man 6-2-6 formations will work against even Roscommon or Cavan? Roscommon for sure would destroy us in much the same way they embarrassed us in Newbridge last year. I don't happen to believe Cavan are world-beaters despite my comments above, I think they were much of a muchness with the rest of Div 2. Not really a benchmark for me.

Caprea wrote:

Are we seriously trying to come up with a masterplan to beat dublin....a few days after losing to Clare? Lads the truth is we have no prospect of beating Dublin in the next 5 years so get comfortable with it.

What we can do is keeping doing the rights things underage, hope hurley and brophy chuck it in down under and hope the GAA belately realise their funding policy is killing competition in intercounty GAA and also hope Cian O'Neill is the real deal. In conclusion we are relying on hope to a large extent for any progress.

Finally the talk that Dublin crave goals and lose the head without them...personally this was true 5-10 years ago but is not now. Dublin score about 2 or 3 goals per game not 4 or 5. They are above average but they are far from just relying on goals to win games. They didn't score a goal in the all ireland final. Who won? Monaghan normally stop them creating goal chances. Who wins those games? Westmeath stopped them scoring goals for a large period of last year's leinster final. Did Dublin get ratty or lose the head?

As for getting inside cluxton's or mcmahon's head..you can do this if its close game mid way through the second half but we'll never be in that position.

Who said anything about BEATING Dublin? You and FearBan are twisting people's words. We just would like to be competitive in general and not to be absolutely destroyed by the top teams. Not condeding 7 goals against Kerry for example. I'd settle for being reasonably confident of not conceding 2 or 3 goals against Wexford to be honest. But that's probably just me "having a pop" again. Again.. I like Cian.. I badly am willing him to succeed but I would have expected to see some semblance of improvement after 11 games. I think he's struggling to find a way to get the players to adapt their ways to fit in with his new "culture". Maybe McGeeney just had better / more committed players and was luckier as a result. He seems to be struggling with his own county presumably using the same ideas/approach. At the end of the day you need the players and maybe ours just aren't up to it. I do agree we are very reliant on hope and faith right now. Brophy coming back would be an amazing boost but I wouldn't wish that on him.

Anyway, I'm going to take a break for a while. Seems you are not allowed to express any concerns on here no matter how much of your life / money you've poured into watching the team. I'll come back after we've beaten Wexford something like 2-25 to 5-10.