Kildare v Meath

I’d love for someone in local sports media to ask Kildare county board what is the plan - not that I’m sure there is a plan for - for Kildare senior footballers in the Leinster championship? Is it to, say, win it over the next five years?

Because I can tell you if articulated that to wider GAA community, after the laughter had died down, the response would be Kildare are so utterly delusional it’s scary.

What I do know is the fallout from this one will be lasting.

We do also know what the number one comedy moment of 2021 will be: the Leinster championship launch. Some lad from Longford saying “We think if we get over Carlow we can give the Dubs a rattle.” Cue the Dubs winning each game by a combined total of 175 points.

Democracy me hole. Only two years ago the proposal to have public votes at congress was heavily defeated. Ultimately there is no accountability to the members and clubs have to just hope that the people they vote onto county boards carry out their promises and have to take it on trust that motions which pass at county level are actually supported by the county's congress delegates. And that's just the rule book.

In terms of day to day management, as far as I am aware, there's very little accountability from central council back to county boards but it's a long time since I attended county board meetings so I might be wrong on that. And I can't imagine that the management committee, which appears to have more or less fully gazumped Central Council's powers, is accountable to anyone only themselves.

The very least that should be expected at this stage is a serious audit/review to see where Kildare football is gone so horribly wrong. There are some serious issues in this county when there is relative success at underage and the continuous worsening situation at senior level. We are drifting more each year and hoping by changing management every few years and we are quite frankly delusional if we think it will miraculously improve. Each crop of underage talent shows potential, we wait for them to come of age, they deteriorate and we start all over again. Remember the leinster final of 2017 when we scored 1-17 against Dublin and showed such potential. Now those players have matured and we have all the top players available
this year expect Adam Tyrell for the leinster championship. We have all players back from Australia and yet we have regressed so much.
Dublins blue wave masterplan was phenomenally successful. We dont need a mickey mouse effort here, spend some money and get outside expertise, perhaps someone like Pat Gilroy with the knowledge of Dublin success and a successful businessman.

Sir Gazelle wrote:

The very least that should be expected at this stage is a serious audit/review to see where Kildare football is gone so horribly wrong. There are some serious issues in this county when there is relative success at underage and the continuous worsening situation at senior level. We are drifting more each year and hoping by changing management every few years and quite frankly delusional. Each crop of underage talent shows potential, we wait for them to come of age, they deteriorate and we start all over again. Remember the leinster final of 2017 when we scored 1-17 against Dublin and showed such potential. Now those players have matured and we have all top players expect Adam Tyrell this year, all players back from Australia and we have regressed so much.
Dublins blue wave masterplan was phenomenally successful. We dont need a mickey mouse effort here, spend some money and get outside expertise, perhaps someone like Pat Gilroy with the knowledge of Dublin success and a successful businessman.

Tyrell only missed last four games of season. Kildare have to many players that turn one day and disappear next day .

Sir Gazelle wrote:

The very least that should be expected at this stage is a serious audit/review to see where Kildare football is gone so horribly wrong. There are some serious issues in this county when there is relative success at underage and the continuous worsening situation at senior level. We are drifting more each year and hoping by changing management every few years and quite frankly delusional. Each crop of underage talent shows potential, we wait for them to come of age, they deteriorate and we start all over again. Remember the leinster final of 2017 when we scored 1-17 against Dublin and showed such potential. Now those players have matured and we have all top players expect Adam Tyrell this year, all players back from Australia and we have regressed so much.
Dublins blue wave masterplan was phenomenally successful. We dont need a mickey mouse effort here, spend some money and get outside expertise, perhaps someone like Pat Gilroy with the knowledge of Dublin success and a successful businessman.

You are so so right my friend. I would love nothing more in my life than for this to happen. My fear is that the county board would see it as a threat to themselves and their legacy and would never allow it.

But this is exactly what's needed.

Then when its done it needs to land! It needs to be implemented and that requires new blood, fresh open thinking and energy.

My guess from talking to people near that 2017 team is a loss of interest. They were beaten by nine I believe, one of only two Leinster games in a decade where Dublin didn't win by double digits and the patronising reaction was embarrassing. "A great effort, a serious team going places" etc. These lads aren't thick. If you lost a club game by nine and were told that was incredible you'd lose interest.

Dublin’s ladies team into the All-Ireland final for the 7th year in a row having only ever won it once prior to that. Golden generation, once in a lifetime talent, nothing to see here

TommyKeegan wrote:

My guess from talking to people near that 2017 team is a loss of interest. They were beaten by nine I believe, one of only two Leinster games in a decade where Dublin didn't win by double digits and the patronising reaction was embarrassing. "A great effort, a serious team going places" etc. These lads aren't thick. If you lost a club game by nine and were told that was incredible you'd lose interest.

The point is Tommy, its not just the 2017 team, its every team since 2001 with the exception maybe of the early McGeeney team. There is something more fundamentally wrong than simply having an inferior manager to Jim Gavin. Going on recent years, even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster. You know what is said aboutdoing the same thing over and ovet and expecting a different result.

Sir Gazelle wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

My guess from talking to people near that 2017 team is a loss of interest. They were beaten by nine I believe, one of only two Leinster games in a decade where Dublin didn't win by double digits and the patronising reaction was embarrassing. "A great effort, a serious team going places" etc. These lads aren't thick. If you lost a club game by nine and were told that was incredible you'd lose interest.

The point is Tommy, its not just the 2017 team, its every team since 2001 with the exception maybe of the early McGeeney team. There is something more fundamentally wrong than simply having an inferior manager to Jim Gavin. Going on recent years, even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster. You know what is said aboutdoing the same thing over and ovet and expecting a different result.

Not sure where you're getting even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster from.

Last 10 competitive fixtures against Leinster counties:

Meath 5 wins 5 loses

Westmeath 7 wins 3 losses

Laois 8 wins 1 loss 1 draw

Offaly 10 wins 0 losses

Thats not exactly not being able to beat the rest of Leinster

[quote="Twentyeight"]

Sir Gazelle wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

My guess from talking to people near that 2017 team is a loss of interest. They were beaten by nine I believe, one of only two Leinster games in a decade where Dublin didn't win by double digits and the patronising reaction was embarrassing. "A great effort, a serious team going places" etc. These lads aren't thick. If you lost a club game by nine and were told that was incredible you'd lose interest.

The point is Tommy, its not just the 2017 team, its every team since 2001 with the exception maybe of the early McGeeney team. There is something more fundamentally wrong than simply having an inferior manager to Jim Gavin. Going on recent years, even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster. You know what is said aboutdoing the same thing over and ovet and expecting a different result.

Not sure where you're getting even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster from.

Last 10 competitive fixtures against Leinster counties:

Meath 5 wins 5 loses

Westmeath 7 wins 3 losses

Laois 8 wins 1 loss 1 draw

Offaly 10 wins 0 losses

Thats not exactly not being able to beat the rest of Leinster[/quote

I want exactly clear, what i refer to is recent leinster championship form e.g beaten by Meath this year, beaten by 15 points to Dublin last year and losing to Carlow the previous year is hardly inspiring especially considering what i would have regarded as a decent set of Kildare players from a talent perspective.

Sir Gazelle wrote:

Twentyeight wrote:

Sir Gazelle wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

My guess from talking to people near that 2017 team is a loss of interest. They were beaten by nine I believe, one of only two Leinster games in a decade where Dublin didn't win by double digits and the patronising reaction was embarrassing. "A great effort, a serious team going places" etc. These lads aren't thick. If you lost a club game by nine and were told that was incredible you'd lose interest.

The point is Tommy, its not just the 2017 team, its every team since 2001 with the exception maybe of the early McGeeney team. There is something more fundamentally wrong than simply having an inferior manager to Jim Gavin. Going on recent years, even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster. You know what is said aboutdoing the same thing over and ovet and expecting a different result.

Not sure where you're getting even if Dublin weren't dominant we still cant beat the rest of leinster from.

Last 10 competitive fixtures against Leinster counties:

Meath 5 wins 5 loses

Westmeath 7 wins 3 losses

Laois 8 wins 1 loss 1 draw

Offaly 10 wins 0 losses

Thats not exactly not being able to beat the rest of Leinster[/quote

I want exactly clear, what i refer to is recent leinster championship form e.g beaten by Meath this year, beaten by 15 points to Dublin last year and losing to Carlow the previous year is hardly inspiring especially considering what i would have regarded as a decent set of Kildare players from a talent perspective.

Thats fair enough and I agree. I came from a bad generation of a decent club. I always remember the feeling of going out playing a team you should beat knowing a twenty point embarrassment to the likes of Sarsfields or Athy was the prize for getting to the next round. Safe to say we lost plenty of matches that we should have won. I get the feeling plenty of the Kildare players have the same mentality.

We've been the second best team in Leinster for a decade, arguably first time since 1950s that occured. Also, best ever at underage. Really don't get the "we need to get ourselves in order first" narrative. We've improved hugely. We can't make a million people and then go to multinationals and suggest they pay for that market while demanding all GAA funding, a stadium and home games.

Being our best isn't possible with Dublin Players know it is pointless. Don't commit and if they do it's a shadow from day one of what's the point. Moolick gone tonight. Fair play to him. Why waste his time.

Well done Waterford.. some turnaround for those Players..
What's made the difference ??. Certainly not Money.

Another article that has alarm bells ringing in HQ... Forget Leinster, Jim McGuinness now saying the likes of Kerry, Donegal, Mayo can see the writing on the wall. They are all teams vastly superior to us, so that gives you some indication of our prospects over the next few years. Wouldn’t at all surprise me if several more are following in Moolick’s footsteps shortly.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-there-is-a-way-to-save-championship-and-make-it-competitive-1.4421447%3fmode=amp

The difference with Waterford Seamy was the savage work rate and intensity they brought to the 2nd half. Kildare players never play with that intensity and we don't tackle hard enough or soon enough.
Gleeson was always a wonderful talent but unable to work as a team player. In the 2nd half he could see something special was happening and rose to the occasion. It would be nice if we could entice some of our more talented players to do likewise.

TommyKeegan wrote:

We've been the second best team in Leinster for a decade, arguably first time since 1950s that occured. Also, best ever at underage. Really don't get the "we need to get ourselves in order first" narrative. We've improved hugely. We can't make a million people and then go to multinationals and suggest they pay for that market while demanding all GAA funding, a stadium and home games.

Being our best isn't possible with Dublin Players know it is pointless. Don't commit and if they do it's a shadow from day one of what's the point. Moolick gone tonight. Fair play to him. Why waste his time.

Tommy i agree with most of your points on the Dublin. It is simply ridiculous that the gaa funded and created the monster, the very team that already vast commercial and population advantages. However my point is that even leaving aside the financial doping of Dublin (that you quite rightly point out), that we need to sort out why we can't match results with talent. Kildare have a good record at underage and fairly regularly beat Dublin but are way off their standard at senior level. We struggle to beat any division one team. We get beaten in the championship by a division 4 team Carlow and then the debacle against Meath. It appears that there is some major performance "drop off" from underage to senior. Perhaps some development squad is needed post underage with specific skills, tackling drills. I really dont know. But what i am saying is there needs to be a framework set in place and we dont seem to have the wherewithal internally and its time to get outside expertise and set it up.

HauntedGraffiti wrote:

Another article that has alarm bells ringing in HQ... Forget Leinster, Jim McGuinness now saying the likes of Kerry, Donegal, Mayo can see the writing on the wall. They are all teams vastly superior to us, so that gives you some indication of our prospects over the next few years. Wouldn’t at all surprise me if several more are following in Moolick’s footsteps shortly.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-there-is-a-way-to-save-championship-and-make-it-competitive-1.4421447%3fmode=amp

Moolick 9 years on Kildare panel

TommyKeegan wrote:

We've been the second best team in Leinster for a decade, arguably first time since 1950s that occured. Also, best ever at underage. Really don't get the "we need to get ourselves in order first" narrative. We've improved hugely. We can't make a million people and then go to multinationals and suggest they pay for that market while demanding all GAA funding, a stadium and home games.

Being our best isn't possible with Dublin Players know it is pointless. Don't commit and if they do it's a shadow from day one of what's the point. Moolick gone tonight. Fair play to him. Why waste his time.

Plenty more we can still do ourselves. Especially with u21 now u20, it's a bigger step up to senior level. We need some sort of development plan for these lads not quiet yet on senior panel and have them availing of the counties s and c and nutrition expertise so that they are senor football ready at managers whim.

Jack doesn't like some of the 2018 u20s, for example Archibald and Barrett were dropped. The,y could yet still be hugely important for Kildare in the future but I'd imagine are now outside the system. So if a new manager comes in in 2 or 3 years time they have to get these lads up to speed from a far lower base unless the fellas have access to the expertise required themselves via 3rd level or club or their own personal determination.

To what ends though? We say we can do this and that but it actually involves shielding the players from reality and inevitability. I mean, honestly, why bother. Be average and lose by 18, be amazing and lose by 10. That's the choice.

TommyKeegan wrote:

We've been the second best team in Leinster for a decade, arguably first time since 1950s that occured.

I'm baffled as to how we've been the second best team in Leinster for a decade. From 2011 to 2020 we've been on the opposite side of the draw to Dublin six times and out of those six times, we've made the Leinster final once. We have one Leinster final appearance in 11 years. We've won one out of our last four Leinster championship games against Meath. We've spent one of the past six seasons in division one.

2010 - Beat Meath, reached All Ireland semi-final, crossbar away from final.
2011 - Rattled Donegal, no other Leinster team in quarter-finals.
2012 - Quarter-finals, Laois only other team there.
2013 - No Leinster team in quarters.
2014 - No Leinster team in quarters.
2015 - Only other Leinster team in quarters.
2016 - No Leinster team in quarters.
2017 - No Leinster team in quarters.
2018 - Only Leinster team in super-eights.
2019 - Meath go further than us to super-eights.

So outside Dublin we'd have the Leinster super-eight apperances, of the five Leinster quarter-final appearances we'd four of them, as well as the only semi-final appearance. Now not bragging, just saying we were the second best team in the province across the decade.

Tommy, your stats are correct but all those through qualifiers, our record in Leinster championship doesn't make pretty reading.

2010 - beaten by Louth in first round
2011 - Lost to Dubs by a point (dubious free) in semi final
2012 - Beaten by meath in leinster semi final
2013 - Hammered by Dublin in Leinster semi final
2014 - Beaten by Meath in Leinster semi final
2015 - Hammered by Dublin in Leinster semi final
2016 - Beaten by Westmeath in leinster semi final
2017 - Beaten by Dubs in Leinster final
2018 - Beaten by Carlow in first round
2019 - Beaten by Dublin in Leinster semi final
2020 - Beaten by Meath in Leinster semi final

In those 11 seasons we have contested one Leinster final, all of the below counties have contested at least the same amount as that.

Louth *1 (2010)
Meath *6 (2010,2012,2013,2014,2019,2020)
Wexford *1 (2011)
Westmeath *2 (2015,2016)
Laois *1 (2018)

While our form in qualifiers has been much better than other Leinster counties, within the province to say we are 2nd best is probably a bit arrogant.

Don’t see any argument that we WEREN’T second best team. In 2018, we beat Mayo, one of the best football teams of the 21st century, in what was the only time in the past 10 seasons they didn’t make at least the semi-final. As we know, they had Dublin hanging on by their fingertips several times.

The idea that Meath beat anywhere near the same calibre of opposition in championship football is laughable.

Also 2017 Leinster final was the only decent game Dubs five in a row team got in the province. We also humiliated Meath in the semi final that year, having done the same in the league earlier in season.

HauntedGrafiti, mayo at best 6th best team of the 21st century and well off that standard in 2018.

That is a straw man - tell me a better team Meath beat in championship in last 10 years?