Knee Injuries???????????

We seem ta be cursed in recent years with serious knee injuries. Just wondering has anyone got opinions on the cause behind this. Better still is there someone with the qualifications to tell us the reasoning behind it or maybe thats wishful thinking.

There seems ta be more of these types of injuries in recent years at all ages. I always presumed the different types of boots available knowadays surely being a possible cause. Also in recent years there as been a shift in training techniques. Gone are the days of the famous Kerry sessions that Micko had them running 40+ laps a nite and new age training and gym work are commonplace. Any opinions??

Part of it could be down to something as simple as wearing boots with blades instead of studs. On top of this there's probably some reasoning behind the idea that injuries are more common when the surface is artificial / astro style in comparison to grass - think some studies into the artificial / grass injury ratio has been done in the NFL in the US, not certain though.

Some of it could be down to increased levels of knowledge and understanding of sports injuries themselves though. Years ago it was a broken foot or toe, then Beckham missed a few World Cup games for England and it was his metatarsal that was broken - people had been getting this injury for years but until then it was simply known as a broken foot or something. Not saying this is causing more injuries, more so that we have a better idea of what the injury specifically is, so we now get knee injuries as opposed to just general leg injuries.

Likewise knee injuries have been happening for years, nowadays though they can be subcatagorised a bit more into cartilage / ligament injuries etc.

Of course increased numbers of training sessions and more intensive fitness work will have contributed, but as a county, on the whole we seem to have gotten more than our fair share of knee injuries in recent years.

only throwing it out as a suggestion but one wonders is it anything to do with the amount of Creatine and Protein drinks/shakes along with the heavy gym work players are on these days . its gone to crazy lengths and i no that it is being taken at extreme amounts by most inter county players and most definatly kildares u/21 players.... ????
the reason im saying this is because i no of a young player who after being told by a trainer he needed to take creatine,his mother consulted his doctor to see was it safe for him to take it, his doctor recommended not to cause his bones/ligaments/muscles where still developing naturally for his age and if he took creatine it would speed up his development too quickly and put too much pressure on his joints too soon,therefore causing breakdown !!!!

The medicos are all against hte use of creatine and its like for youngsters... it's a massive problem in rugby schools and so it's no surprise that it's in GAA... the Irish Sports Council did a report last year and they said it was responsible for a massive amount of injuries with bodies breaking down, so you could be on to somethign HoA.

A lot of our injuries have been to older more established lads though. And nationwide. I think training has gone to a level now where bodies will break down because while training is professional, the lifestyle isn't because there isn't the rest and recuperation as lads have to go to work.

HoA is not far from it, I reckon.

The leg muscles have got bigger but the joints/tendons/ligaments/cartilages remain the same size and therefore have the same capacity for wear and tear as a normal club player who wouldn't be freaking out on the weights so much.

The problem with stuff like creatine and protein supplements is that a lot of lads don't need to take them to begin with. I know of lads who've been told by trainers and coaches in the past (more specifically in rugby), that they need to be taking stuff like creatine and NO Xplode to improve their strength. The majority of, if not all, GAA players are already going to be eating healthy, and I'm sure most are already aware of how much protein they need on a daily basis without taking creatine on top of it.

The fact that creatine and the like are relatively new to the scene means that there isn't a lot of study done on the long term effects to your body. Protein is the hardest food substance for your body to break down so hitting your kidneys and liver with a half litre shake a few times a day isn't exactly going to go down to well, unless your also drinking about 10-12 litres of water over the next few hours. Even then whats to say that the next time your taking a piss your not pissing 80% protein?

Regarding young people taking them, well it's probably linked to theory that youngsters shouldn't do heavy weights in a gym till at least 16 - 18 years old. As the body is still growing there may well be something behind the idea that heavy weights mixed with unnecessary supplements could have more of a negative impact on the body than a positive one.

Like Ogie says you need as much rest after training as possible, with guys going home to families and working the next day they don't have the luxury of rest and recovery time that a professional sport star will have, which will have a massive impact on the damage done to muscles and joints.

I wonder if it is down to a combination of the things lads, the boots, the change in training methods, the use of supplements (not sure on this one) and a more indepth knowledge and diagnose of injuries that we have now. My personal opinion is that it has a lot to do with the way the games is played now for (1) The game is played at a much faster pace now more running etc.
(2)The game because of the use of the hand pass and the keep pocession mentality envolves a lot more quick turning and twisting. (3) Lads are much fitter and probably pushing themself to there physical limit.
The most worrying thing Is that this is happening to U16 all the way up I bet that if you ask everyone here they know player in there club who has done there knee in the past year.

Nothing to do with supplements (unless its banned stuff), its the nature of the game we play. High jumping, instant change in direction and the tackle are the major contributors. Poor warm up & bad exercise for kness are another of the ther major contributors to the problem. Look across other codes and compare, you would expect far more knee problems in rugby & soccer but there isn't. Thats because of the way the game is played.

I would be pretty certain when I say that it has absolutely nothing to do with taking Creatine and Protein supplements.

Creatine occurs naturally within the body on its own, It is also present in meat and fish which also is high in protein. it is generally only taken as a supplement to help aid muscle regeneration and growth along with Protein. In saying that supplements shouldn't be taken until you are fully grown.

There are many many factors contributing to Knee Injuries.

Muscles imbalances like weak quad and glute muscles put extra strain on the knee to support the body during excercise.

The sport your playing,poor warm up, poor conditioning, the footwear your wearing, the surface you playing on and of course just plain bad luck.

Fionn and stonecold are you suggesting Kildare's warm up under mcgeeney have been poor and this has contributed to the spateof injuries we have seen lately?

i dont believe its to do with warm up etc ,while it did happen, it did not happen to such an extent as late as pre 2005, so how is it anything to do with pitches,warm ups ? all of which have inproved from my playing days. it has to be factored to changes in the game and the way teams prepare for the game, this has to be something to do with the introduction of gym training,new training techniques ,supplements or possibly too much football.
if a qualified doctor says that you should not take any muscle growth enhancing/recovery supplements untill you are fully grown, bearing in mind most males dont stop growing until they are 25, i most definatly believe the supplements ,along with too much football at teenage years have contributed to the knee problems. i know of alot of footballers, mostly on various level county teams, from 17 to 25 who are taking muscle enhancing- muscle recovery supplements. it cant be good for them ...

id side with just bad luck

wingback wrote:

Fionn and stonecold are you suggesting Kildare's warm up under mcgeeney have been poor and this has contributed to the spateof injuries we have seen lately?

I can only speak of personal experiences, regarding knee injuries you name it I've done it to mine; ACL, cartilage, bone break, arthritus etc. Planting the foot doesn't help, landing wrong when jumping deffinitely doesn't help (parachute jumpers are always told to bend the knees when landing, wonder why??), I would recommend that every serious footballer should see a chiropodist to get properly fitted for boots, also people tend to run on their heels which is wrong and strength conditioning of the quads should be a must.

Iv seen two done, one during training and one during a match.

The one during training was when the lad landed after catching a ball, tried to turn and his foot stayed put. He was just after getting new boots with metal blades do they might have something to do with it.

On the P Kelly thread, it could have been Fionn (apologies if I'm wrong) who linked articles about the boots players wear. I think a lot of the problems are down to these.

You always seem to hear of ACL's going when the ground is softer too, usually earlyish in the season. Don't know if that has anything to do with it but just an observation.

It could very well be the weight players are doing (or have done in the past) in my opininon.

There always seems to be a bigger emphasis on being bigger, by that i mean bigger upperbody, arms chest back etc. Sometimes the weight training isn't equal between upper body and lower body. This means that there's to much upper body weight for your legs to handle, and therefore your knee buckles.

Weight training has to be done right and controlled. If it isn't its very dangerous.

norightfoot wrote:

It could very well be the weight players are doing (or have done in the past) in my opininon.

There always seems to be a bigger emphasis on being bigger, by that i mean bigger upperbody, arms chest back etc. Sometimes the weight training isn't equal between upper body and lower body. This means that there's to much upper body weight for your legs to handle, and therefore your knee buckles.

Weight training has to be done right and controlled. If it isn't its very dangerous.

I agree that weight training can be very dangerous but isn't that what the strength and conditioning coaches get paid for?

Wouldn't their most intense weight training be focusing on the lower half or core of the body considering this is where all your power for running/kicking/jumping comes from?

Yeah naturally you need a strong upperbody too so you canbreak tackles,hit shoulders, hit the ground without getting hurt.

Yes i agree fully with you that the most intense training would be focused on lower half and core and i'm sure this is done at county level where they have their qualified coaches.

But i wouldn't be convinced that clubs are as well informed. This is where players really start doing gym work and possibly where damage is done. A lot of clubs don't have strength and conditioning coaches so they sort of guess there way through it with things they've heard and what they think themselves, which might just be, get the lads to lift the most weight that they can, or bench the most they can or whatever.

Now maybe this doesn't happen but its just a thought.

Interest debate here however I would advise that unless people have some medical backround specialising in sports medicine/injuries I would be careful in giving advice on areas of the body that should be strengthened and general opinions on weight training. (In fact due to the anonimity here, all recommendations/advice should be ignored)
There have been numerous studies in to cruciate injuries and none seem to be conclusive. Issues from footware, training, genetics & even gender all seem to "possibly" play a part in the injury.
It seems that the only way to minimise the probability of the this type of injury occuring is through proper screening of players from a young age and the inplementation of suitable individual strength training programmes (be they weights or body weight exercises) to rectify weakness and focus on proper technique.
I have also yet to read any reports on the negative effects of supplements and supplementation (including creatine) on elite atheletes.

I don't think anybody is suggesting any mad science or anything of the sort, its more a common sense approach. Plus, as I found out, its like the saying "Doctors differ, patients die" (no I'm not dead) but it wasn't until a 3rd GP opinion that the problem was correclty diagnosed.

There are 2 maybe 3 top class knee/joint specialist in Ireland (Ray Moran & J P McElwain) so I don't know how that screening would work.

I disagree Stonecold, a common sense approach is not the way forward. An informed educated approach supervised by professionals in the field of sports resistance training and sports medicine is. How many players do we see in gyms training with heavy weights at the sacrifice of proper form and full range of motion, never mind those who train their "t-shirt" muscles just too look good at the weekend......
The screening I refer to is not conducted by knee specialists but by the above mentioned specialists. To summarize it involves the observation of each individual performing bodyweight exercises thus identifying strength imbalances, poor flexibility and technique, resulting in an specialized individual programme for each individual with reassessment at regular intervals (The Germans have been doing it for years with all of their young athletes), and would take 1 day maximum for a squad of players.
I do agree with your statement on the importance of quad strength however it should be noted that one of the most common injuries for an athlete returning from a cruciate injury is a hamstring tear due to concentration on quad dominant exercises at the expense of hamstring strengthening.
All I am saying is that its about an educated organised approach to training at all levels and hopefully this should reduce the instances of serious injuries to players at all levels. Until some definitive results come out on cruciate injuries, we have to put up with them. Unfortunalty cruciate injuries just happen

Well as I said all along in each post I am giving opinion based on the experiences I've had. If I knew then what I know now could I have prevented my problems happening? I would say I would have reduced the risk significantly and I would take a torn hamstring anyday of the week.

I think there may be a more simple answer to why do so many footballers do their cruciate. If the odds are that you have a (for example) 1% chance of doing your cruciate while training/playing then the more frequently you train/play the higher the likelihood of injury. Since the Kildare lads are out six times a week (which is far higher than the average footballer) the odds of them doing a cruciate rises. Most clubs prob have a cruciate injury at the moment to a fella who was only training a couple of times a week and at a lower intensity so it stands to reason that a Kildare squad with 35 -40 players will have a couple of cruciate injuries every year.
They have a very good fitness instructor in Julie Davis and are on a balanced weights programme so it prob isn't the type of weights that is the problem. For me its that the body is struggling to cope with the demands that are being asked of it. The lads are training professionally but are working full-time too. There is no recovery time for the bodies.
For instance I've heard that the current batch of Kildare juniors (including a handful of seniors who have been playing with them) have played something like 6 matches already this year. Some of the juniors who are involved in the senior panel have had over two and a half weeks of daily training and matches without a rest. They went to Athlone on Wednesday night last to play St Bridgets and weren't home until after midnight, lads then had to get up for work at half 6 or 7 and go back training again that night. There's where the body breaks down, there's why there are so many cruciate injuries...

that makes the most sense out of all the posts there flat out!

I think its a combination of a lot of things. Firstly I think alot of mis-diagnosis happened years ago. Apart from Pat Spillane nobody every heard of a torn Cruicate Ligament years past.. Now its the buzz word.....
Teams are now training at an almost professional level in an amateur sport.. The moden player has to have fitness levels of a professional while leading a life and earning a living outside of sport.
Then there are the unfortunate ones myself included, who just pick up injuries no matter what you do. In my case, catching a ball and deciding to turn to avoid your marker is all very well only for my foot to land in a hole in the pitch so it was game over then..... Oh and to help, my marker also made sure I felt the force of him, in fairness though, he wasn't to know I was already on the way to the turf in agony...... Oh the ACL injury.... Great memories!!!!!!!