Kildare v Offaly

Massive game for Kildare football. Don't forget, under the much-maligned Jason Ryan, we toughed out a win in Tullamore last year after a 19-point hammering six days previous. If we lose to them in Newbridge after a two-week break there can be no excuses.

Big Full Back wrote:

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Lily8 wrote:

I'd be more than surprised if lads did agree to come in just to make up numbers for in house matches when they don't even have a hope of actually playing in a competitive match.

In fairness 8 or 9 did show, mainly of the U23s.. how hard is a fella gonna try if there's no hope of being selected. . and of what benefit is it to a lad on the 15 marking a fella whose not gonna be arsed.. if you get my meaning.

True but that's the difference in a team going somewhere and one going nowhere. Dublin have a panel of 34-35 and if you've a chance of being part of a successful squad lads will make the effort. Forgive me for dragging up old war wounds but in McGeeneys time you had that desire and sorry to say that is sadly missing now.

Found an interesting stat on gaelicstats.com. In ten seasons they looked at county by county how many players were used in their squads. Kerry used 58 players over that period the least amount by any county. This was followed by Sligo 62 Donegal 64 Dublin 66 Monaghan 67 Longford 72 Mayo 73. Kildare used 78 players in that period. Taking Sligo and Longford out of the equation the top counties come August/September have stability.

They sum up their findings:

Does success lead to stability or does stability lead to success? Looking at these numbers and especially looking at the above graph since 2012 it seems to me that unsuccessful teams don’t lack for players but they do seem to struggle to retain the same players. In any given year they use the same quantity of players as the best teams, the issue is not enough of them are the same players as the previous year.

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. The unsuccessful teams are constantly playing catch up with their new/slowest buffalo(s).

I'm sure quality has a bearing also and unless we can get some of these U-21's and Minors from the last few years who've tasted success at Leinster level at least and know what it's like to win, we could end up like Laois plenty of underage success and still couldn't get a winning senior team.

There was a time we'd be asking how challenge matches went against the likes of Tyrone or Kerry. Now we're asking how challenges went against Longford, Wicklow and Antrim. One wonders what the future holds.

Missed this post - very interesting. Also puts the lie to the claim that the net isn't cast wide enough and players aren't given a chance, need to dump all these lads and get another set of lads in. I keep saying it, the turnover has been huge in a very short space of time. There will of course be a few more newbies next year, if they accept the invitation. I would say there'll be a few retirements.

I just hope Kildare actually have a go. WE NEED TO SCORE to win a match not just play this defensive shit. Course players can work back and help out but we need to have numbers in attack at all times. WE are not playing Dublin here. WE are playing Offaly and we need to push right up.

Report on SKY SPORT this afternoon that some of the Offaly senior football team are considering not travelling to Newbridge for fear of coming into contact with the Zika virus, given the unseasonally warm weather in Kildare.

Tomo the mosquitos wouldn't watch the crap we play.

Ogie wrote:

Big Full Back wrote:

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Lily8 wrote:

I'd be more than surprised if lads did agree to come in just to make up numbers for in house matches when they don't even have a hope of actually playing in a competitive match.

In fairness 8 or 9 did show, mainly of the U23s.. how hard is a fella gonna try if there's no hope of being selected. . and of what benefit is it to a lad on the 15 marking a fella whose not gonna be arsed.. if you get my meaning.

True but that's the difference in a team going somewhere and one going nowhere. Dublin have a panel of 34-35 and if you've a chance of being part of a successful squad lads will make the effort. Forgive me for dragging up old war wounds but in McGeeneys time you had that desire and sorry to say that is sadly missing now.

Found an interesting stat on gaelicstats.com. In ten seasons they looked at county by county how many players were used in their squads. Kerry used 58 players over that period the least amount by any county. This was followed by Sligo 62 Donegal 64 Dublin 66 Monaghan 67 Longford 72 Mayo 73. Kildare used 78 players in that period. Taking Sligo and Longford out of the equation the top counties come August/September have stability.

They sum up their findings:

Does success lead to stability or does stability lead to success? Looking at these numbers and especially looking at the above graph since 2012 it seems to me that unsuccessful teams don’t lack for players but they do seem to struggle to retain the same players. In any given year they use the same quantity of players as the best teams, the issue is not enough of them are the same players as the previous year.

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. The unsuccessful teams are constantly playing catch up with their new/slowest buffalo(s).

I'm sure quality has a bearing also and unless we can get some of these U-21's and Minors from the last few years who've tasted success at Leinster level at least and know what it's like to win, we could end up like Laois plenty of underage success and still couldn't get a winning senior team.

There was a time we'd be asking how challenge matches went against the likes of Tyrone or Kerry. Now we're asking how challenges went against Longford, Wicklow and Antrim. One wonders what the future holds.

Missed this post - very interesting. Also puts the lie to the claim that the net isn't cast wide enough and players aren't given a chance, need to dump all these lads and get another set of lads in. I keep saying it, the turnover has been huge in a very short space of time. There will of course be a few more newbies next year, if they accept the invitation. I would say there'll be a few retirements.

I don't necessarily agree that it makes lie to the claim that we should dump these lads and get another set in. If there was a clear out with a lot of young players coming in sure it would lead to a high turnover for the next few years but long term it should lead to a much more settled panel.

For example in a lot of American sports teams "Fail Quick", meaning they dump their older/better players in order to give the younger player game time and experience to win in 2/3 years time. Its not all about winning now but building for the future. We have waited long enough in Kildare we could wait a bit longer if there was a clear plan put in place which unfortunately is lacking.

Cassanata wrote:

Ogie wrote:

Big Full Back wrote:

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Lily8 wrote:

I'd be more than surprised if lads did agree to come in just to make up numbers for in house matches when they don't even have a hope of actually playing in a competitive match.

In fairness 8 or 9 did show, mainly of the U23s.. how hard is a fella gonna try if there's no hope of being selected. . and of what benefit is it to a lad on the 15 marking a fella whose not gonna be arsed.. if you get my meaning.

True but that's the difference in a team going somewhere and one going nowhere. Dublin have a panel of 34-35 and if you've a chance of being part of a successful squad lads will make the effort. Forgive me for dragging up old war wounds but in McGeeneys time you had that desire and sorry to say that is sadly missing now.

Found an interesting stat on gaelicstats.com. In ten seasons they looked at county by county how many players were used in their squads. Kerry used 58 players over that period the least amount by any county. This was followed by Sligo 62 Donegal 64 Dublin 66 Monaghan 67 Longford 72 Mayo 73. Kildare used 78 players in that period. Taking Sligo and Longford out of the equation the top counties come August/September have stability.

They sum up their findings:

Does success lead to stability or does stability lead to success? Looking at these numbers and especially looking at the above graph since 2012 it seems to me that unsuccessful teams don’t lack for players but they do seem to struggle to retain the same players. In any given year they use the same quantity of players as the best teams, the issue is not enough of them are the same players as the previous year.

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. The unsuccessful teams are constantly playing catch up with their new/slowest buffalo(s).

I'm sure quality has a bearing also and unless we can get some of these U-21's and Minors from the last few years who've tasted success at Leinster level at least and know what it's like to win, we could end up like Laois plenty of underage success and still couldn't get a winning senior team.

There was a time we'd be asking how challenge matches went against the likes of Tyrone or Kerry. Now we're asking how challenges went against Longford, Wicklow and Antrim. One wonders what the future holds.

Missed this post - very interesting. Also puts the lie to the claim that the net isn't cast wide enough and players aren't given a chance, need to dump all these lads and get another set of lads in. I keep saying it, the turnover has been huge in a very short space of time. There will of course be a few more newbies next year, if they accept the invitation. I would say there'll be a few retirements.

I don't necessarily agree that it makes lie to the claim that we should dump these lads and get another set in. If there was a clear out with a lot of young players coming in sure it would lead to a high turnover for the next few years but long term it should lead to a much more settled panel.

For example in a lot of American sports teams "Fail Quick", meaning they dump their older/better players in order to give the younger player game time and experience to win in 2/3 years time. Its not all about winning now but building for the future. We have waited long enough in Kildare we could wait a bit longer if there was a clear plan put in place which unfortunately is lacking.

Kieran McGeeney did just that in 2013 and got sacked.

I think there were many more reasons than just that.

Agree Oige

Any idea what time the match is scheduled for, no fear that the 'powers to be' will let people know too far in advance.

Think they wont decide till after the Offaly Hurling qualifier this Saturday so it will be Monday afternoon I'd say!

umpireonditch wrote:

Think they wont decide till after the Offaly Hurling qualifier this Saturday so it will be Monday afternoon I'd say!

Thanks 'umpireonditch', just looked at the Gaa website, same for other counties involved in both codes next weekend, that's fair enough.

Cassanata wrote:

I think there were many more reasons than just that.

Excuses aren't the same as reasons, but I have no appetite for banging my head off a that particular brick wall today, or any other. Was just making one particular point related to the previous post about needing to get rid and introduce a whole crop of youngsters. It was tried and hasn't produced dividends. But there are lads good enough you'd hope to see next year, if they make themselves available.

Ogie wrote:

Cassanata wrote:

I think there were many more reasons than just that.

Excuses aren't the same as reasons, but  I have no appetite for banging my head off a that particular brick wall today, or any other. Was just making one particular point related to the previous post about needing to get rid and introduce a whole crop of youngsters. It was tried and hasn't produced dividends. But there are lads good enough you'd hope to see next year, if they make themselves available.

This does seem to be coming an issue in a number of counties, player's in down and armagh recently and no doubts in a few more..
lts a huge commitment.

Is it any more of a commitment than it was say 10 years ago?

jim wrote:

Is it any more of a commitment than it was say 10 years ago?

Yes, definitely. Tomas O'Se wrote an interesting article in the Independent last weekend about how the demands on intercounty players have changed so much. He said when he was with Kerry, they had three training sessions a week and all their work was done within those three sessions. Now there are pitch sessions but also core sessions, weights sessions, personal programmes etc. that have to be done too. It's taking up more and more of their time plus having a much bigger impact on their social lives now too.

It makes for an interesting read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/toms-s-imagine-jonny-cooper-or-diarmuid-connolly-being-photographed-supping-bottles-in-coppers-this-week-34831883.html

Im not sure. There may be more collective sessions. If you read Pat Spillanes book or Colm O Rourkes book they trained most days sometimes on their own which some ways is a harder way to train.

There are obviously differing opinions on this. Roly Sweeney and Johnny Doyle were praising Declan O'Sullivan's column on GAA.ie rubbishing the 'hard lines' argument proffered for county players (http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/column-declan-sullivan-football/).

Cody has always rubbished it, Ciarán Fitzpatrick said he loved it. Roly called the argument BS on Twitter last night. Colm Parkinson made the valid point - I think it's one Tomás made - that it was easier for Kerry lads as they knew they were in All-Ireland contention. But Cahir Healy said he never found it a chore and he's travelling form London at weekends - he loved. Johnny said he loved working hard and trying to get better, striving to win, even when they didn't.

Parkinson also said that there was a pressure from external forces to stay in the squad, even if you thought the commitment was too much for two important games in the year - I know a Kerry-based journalist said the same to me recently. Still though, if it's too much, you leave, don't you? There's another issue at play there, of course, and that's the structure. More games and more important games are needed and not the case where Roscommon have three games played before Sligo get their championship under way. Holy Christ!!

I just think it's about your own personal motivation - I would have loved the idea of wearing the county jersey but I certainly wouldn't have been committed or disciplined enough and would have fallen out.

And here's another thing - there are athletes in other much lower profile disciplines putting in similar work, around their jobs, be it runners, triathletes and so on, some putting their careers on hold for a year in a bid to make Olympics etc.

The only big issue I have actually with the regime, is the notion of drink or unwinding, if you like one. We saw it in Australia when Brendan Maher was over, we saw it with the Irish lads in France after the Italy game - a few bottles even though it was a few days before France. I think that side of it is gone bananas - I'm not saying do a Pilkington on it, but the problem now is that has become such an issue, a guy can't walk into a pub and have a mineral without getting dog's abuse.

By the way, I think there's only one footballer that has made himself unavailable for Armagh and he has done it numerous times over the past few years - fair play to Jamie Clarke, football isn't his be-all and end-all and he's entitled to see the world or experience other things, as anyone else is. That's the point of it all, isn't it? You decide 'can I give this commitment? Do I want to?' If you do then, you're in. And if there's a panel of 30, it's simple mathematics that by some people's logic, at least eight or nine will be leaving every fortnight because they're wasting their time not getting a game.

Will cian change things now for the offaly game ?. This "system " isn't working so far.. if he sticks with it I fear the outcome v offaly.

Well if you believe in it for the long term, and you know you have the backing of the board, and it is the system that is flourishing at the top level, you stick with it. If you absolutely have to win to save your job, maybe not. Or maybe you just go for the win and revisit it next October / November, hoping that with more time and considerably less upheaval within the squad in the build up to and during the league, you'll get it right. Because it's not the system that's the problem, it's its execution.

Anyway, that's the dilemma.

For me, the biggest issue in this two weeks isn't the system at all but the players' minds. Morale, confidence must be low and there is no doubt they are playing with a lot of fear - like the England soccer team at major championships. Was listening to a French journalist talking about the England soccer team the other night, it was brilliant - all I could keep thinking about was that he could be talking about the Kildare footballers.

It's certainly a help that we got 2 weeks and not the dreaded 6 days.

Most club teams in kildare tend to adopt a defensive style of play and do it very well.. I appreciate it's at a total different level, and of course player's have to buy into it completely.
I recall recently a club manager in kildare being very successful with a very defensive system, but when he tried to implement this at another club, it didn't work out and he didn't last to long.. simply the players didn't buy into it.

And how is Pascal Kellaghan keeping these days Seamus?!!

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Will cian change things now for the offaly game  ?. This "system " isn't working so far.. if he sticks with it I fear the outcome v offaly.

I hope he goes 15 v 15 and forget about this defensive system and see where that brings us. I certainly don't want to see a 0.07 to 0.06 game. Its not as if we are going the win the All- Ireland so why not get back to playing entertaining football and give the fans something to cheer about ( win, lose or draw).

I think back to the final day of the 6 nations rugby last year when as the games progressed each team needed to win by more points and the 'coaching manual' went out the window and players expressed themselves and we probably had the best 3 games of rugby in years.

I really think most, if not all, team sports are been 'coached to death' and indeed Gaelic football is starting to look like basketball ( in so far as when you don't have the ball everybody just retreats into their own half ) or dare I say it, soccer, except that you can handle the ball.

What's equally as worrying is that Hurling is now also starting the be played in the same manner.

Shergar wrote:

And how is Pascal Kellaghan keeping these days Seamus?!!

I hope he's not going to be celebrating come Saturday week eh shergar.

Ogie wrote:

The only big issue I have actually with the regime, is the notion of drink or unwinding, if you like one. We saw it in Australia when Brendan Maher was over, we saw it with the Irish lads in France after the Italy game - a few bottles even though it was a few days before France. I think that side of it is gone bananas - I'm not saying do a Pilkington on it, but the problem now is that has become such an issue, a guy can't walk into a pub and have a mineral without getting dog's abuse.

That's one of the toughest parts of being a modern county player in my opinion. People think they have a right to tell them what they can/can't do 24/7. Yes they have to train hard and be committed but surely they need a bit of down time too. You hear stories from older players where they used to have a few drinks and how it actually bonded them as a team. Nobodys saying to go out on the piss the week before a match but if they're even seen near a pub for the majority of the year there's uproar and not just within the camp but from supporters too. The rumour mill goes into over drive and it goes from maybe one player having a 7up in a pub to "oh he was locked, falling around the place."

I think it's actually this side of it, the complete lack of social life, that's turning more and more younger lads away from opting into the senior panels around the country. Surely giving them a bit of breathing space and a bit of their lives outside of football back would ease the mental strain of being an intercounty player, could make lads happier in general and actually potentially improve them as players rather than being locked away for most of the year.