Mike McGurns Article on GAA players playing Rugby - Target GAA Players???

IT'S not often that a rugby autobiography creates a stir in the GAA world, but Bernard Jackman's Blue Blood has achieved just that.

Jackman's just-published account of life with Leinster and Ireland revealed that Carlow footballer Brendan Murphy, then with the Sydney Swans, was offered a €30,000-a-year contract by Leinster despite having never played the game. Jackman, also from Carlow, helped broker the deal, believing it would only take Murphy -- who ultimately declined the offer -- a couple of years to master rugby's complexities.

He also claimed that targeting Murphy was only the start. "They might even pass out some of the young rugby stars of the future," Jackman wrote. "Most of the best athletes in Ireland play Gaelic games and I have always been amazed at how the IRFU never aggressively tried to convert football and hurling stars to our game.

"I also wonder why Leinster, Munster and Connacht are not trying to convert at least one Gaelic footballer or hurler to our game each season. The top young GAA players are outstanding athletes who possess brilliant hand-to-eye co-ordination."

Galway footballer Sean Armstrong is currently playing with Shannon in the AIL and scored a try in his recent debut against Cork Con. He says it is a temporary switch, but it's bound to give others food for thought, particularly with GAA players struggling to find work in this worsening economic climate. The GPA has already helped 230 unemployed GAA players financially, while over 200 hurlers and footballers have left Kerry in the past six months alone to seek work.

But former IRFU fitness coach and current Armagh team trainer Mike McGurn maintains that changing codes is beyond most GAA players right now.

"I can see Bernard's view but a lot of young Gaelic footballers who try rugby will come back with their tails between their legs," he says. "The gap between Gaelic football and professional rugby has grown even wider. Bernard was talking about Brendan Murphy making it with Leinster but I don't think Brendan would have the skill set needed for a rugby career. And it's not just him; that applies to a lot of GAA players at the moment."

Kieran McGeeney said last week that the standard of Gaelic football has never been higher, but McGurn, who was conditioning coach with Anthony Tohill's International Rules team, has a different view.

"We had the cream of Gaelic football talent at our disposal, but our shooting and kicking was very poor and our lads didn't have enough skills. It was clear county teams have put way too much emphasis on fitness and conditioning and not enough on the basic skills.

"Anthony was then expected to work miracles but it doesn't happen like that. Guys couldn't kick the ball accurately over 40 yards and teams are obviously too caught up with fitness training. They're obsessed with weights and most of them are doing the wrong type of weight training anyway. Their skill set is shocking and it's endemic of Gaelic football right now. I don't think many of our lads would cut it at rugby. If they did, they could only play in the back three -- at full-back or on the wings. The GAA guys would struggle with the tackle as well. We tried to implement it with the International Rules but it was alien to them.

"So those are the challenges. Take Sonny Bill Williams of the All Blacks. Offensively, he is awesome; a huge star. But he was a rugby league player before and hasn't a clue in the rucks and mauls. The game of rugby is so technical now that GAA players would struggle just as badly and unfortunately, they wouldn't be as skilful as they were in the past. They wouldn't have the evasion skills or the muscle mass either, so I think Bernard's comments in his book are wishful thinking."

Limerick footballer Stephen Kelly has spent the past four seasons combining Gaelic football and rugby with Shannon. He came late to rugby but with his speed and tenacity he was shoved straight onto the Shannon first team. He has played for Munster A against Ulster, won an AIL title and also enjoyed cup success.

"It's down to every individual," Kelly says. "I was thrown straight in and ironed out my early problems -- that was good. Once the body got used to taking hits, I could make progress. With the economy the way it is, I wouldn't blame lads for giving it a try full-time. They'd feel they have the weight training base and the skills, so why not?

"But the way Gaelic football is heading, it wouldn't be conducive to a lot of lads leaving for rugby. With Shannon, we train way more with the ball than with Limerick and I'd say that would apply to Gaelic teams all over the country.

"With inter-county football there's a template. Get your fitness level right to play a match and a half on any given day, build up your physical strength and tackling, focus on handpassing and ball retention and then work on the kicking side of things. That's the order now -- despite the fact that it's supposed to be 'foot-ball'. It's actually desperate to watch football on TV these days; I'd sooner watch a hurling game."

Kelly added that Shannon's policy, apart from one night's conditioning, is to work every drill with the ball. "So this assumption that GAA players have more natural ball talent is fading," he adds. "I think you could see that in the International Rules, where we had to resort to soccer touches at times. It was poor. The test in Limerick was a disaster because it demonstrated that counties have lost sight of what Gaelic football is about.

"Most inter-county players are afraid to kick the ball for fear of losing possession and the basic skills are not being produced anymore. If a guy has enough talent, I'm sure rugby coaches could work with him alright, and any young lad would have to seriously consider an offer of a professional lifestyle, but I don't think the switch would be as simple as it's made out to be."

Wouldn't worry too much about it. There's only 4 teams worth bothering about and how many could they take from 32 counties.

Would probably wipe out the whole Meath team though !

In some ways I have to agree with McGurn about the way most teams train. Any trainer I played under spent way to much time doing running drills without the ball because that was the way then have a game at the end and you might not get a kick or your to tired. I see it now at underage levels that the skill levels are very poor catching kicking running with the ball not as good when I was growing up.

Player of one sport can't play another sport to a high level shocker. They are two completely different sports, needing two different set of physical attributes and skills. You might as well say that a top squash player would find it hard to match a top tennis player playing tennis or vice versa. They both use raquets, play on a court and hit a moving ball. but no one would assume one could play the other at a high level and be competitive

What McGurn should answer if he is taking that view is how many Rugby stars would get into a County team. I would say very few if any.
He says that a Gaa player would only be able to play in the backs, well a Rugby Forward sure ain't going to play in the half forward line of a County team.

It's just a strange article only looking at it from one perspective.

Firstly I just want to say I actually like rugby, and would watch rugby as regularly as I would watch Gaa.
However McGurn is a typical rugby head, thinking that their minority sport is elitest and that a top gaa player wouldn't be able to play. Rubbish, Jackman who is just finished playing the sport would have a better insight into what would make a good modern rugby player and I support his view.
Take Paul O'Connell, he is tough as nails and all that, but he struggles with catching (knocks the ball on alot), kicking, passing out of the tackle, and is slow as a wet week yet that is seen as alright in rugby circles as he is only a big second row and he is also seen as a fantastic rugby player. Yet he is of similar height (smaller in some cases) to the likes of Dermot Earley, Brendan Murphy, Aiden Walsh, Kieran Donaghty, Tommy Walsh, Michael Quirke etc and all these guys are brilliant at fielding, kicking points from 35-40 yards and can get around a pitch too. Oh ye and are AMATEURS!
If a rugby player catches the ball on their own with the nearest opposition player 10 feet away you hear the phrase 'great hands' said in that ridiculous rugby accent that all Leinster based players have, yet a gaa player will do the same thing with some lad hanging outta him and its just seen as a normal regular part of the game.
Like this 'skill set' McGurn talks about - don't make me laugh. They are raving in rugby circles about Brian O'Driscolls try against the All Blacks where he scouped the ball off the ground while running. A gaa player has to do that every match while sticking his toe underneath it too! It was a lovely try but nothing amazing unless I suppose you've only got the 'skill set' of a pro rugby player! As for an outsider to rugby union not understanding rucks, mauls and scrums - sure even the ref doesn't understand them! Rugger heads love to think there is a great science to these things but alas its mainly about doing whatever you want once the ref doesn't penalise you.
Rugby is great in many ways as it can accomodate any type of man - lanky (great second row), fat and stumpy (great prop), short ar*e (great scrum half), really fast but not much good at anything else (great winger), actually able to kick a ball (out half)! But it is a minority sport and therefore percentage wise the best athletes play gaa and soccer. I saw a guy in the gym recently (plays with Naas who are AIL div 3 - so a decent level) and he would be considered (again said in that Leinster rugger accent) a 'monster' of a man. He was able to do something like 5 pull-ups. Hilarious stuff. Yet he will be walking around after a match in his blazer like some sort of a modern Hercules with the rugger buggers saying how immense (yes said in that accent again...) he was.
If you took any good county team and had a year or so to train them they would probably win the AIL div 1 league. If everyone in Ireland played rugby we'd have beaten the All Blacks instead of saying a 20 point beating is progress! Go through every gaa team in the country - there are a couple of savage players on each team, players that just stand out. Thats about 50-60 from the 32 counties. Our rugby team probably has 2 (BOD and Jamie Heaslip). Rugby people were put on the earth to make the rest of us laugh at their narrow mindedness and to keep us grounded lest we end up like them. As long as there is rugby Ross O'Carroll-Kelly will never die!

JME wrote:

Player of one sport can't play another sport to a high level shocker. They are two completely different sports, needing two different set of physical attributes and skills. You might as well say that a top squash player would find it hard to match a top tennis player playing tennis or vice versa. They both use raquets, play on a court and hit a moving ball. but no one would assume one could play the other at a high level and be competitive

What McGurn should answer if he is taking that view is how many Rugby stars would get into a County team. I would say very few if any.
He says that a Gaa player would only be able to play in the backs, well a Rugby Forward sure ain't going to play in the half forward line of a County team.

It's just a strange article only looking at it from one perspective.

To be fair, it's not like McGurn rang the indo to talk about this - he was obviously approached by the Indo in response to what Jackman said about Brendan Murphy, which actually turned out to be true (apart from the 30,000 part).... Jackman said that there was a huge market there for readymade rugby players in GAA, so obviously McGurn, who has worked in both, was asked what he thought. And he said it wasn't feasible, so in that context, I thought it was interesting. It makes sense because there are nothing like the level of collisions in GAA that there are in rugby.

What he said about the skills though was the most interesting thing and he's very well qualified to discuss it. I think things are improving but clearly more specific training needs to be done.

Having watched and attended a couple of the (hugely overpriced) Autumn internationals I am questionig this skill McGurn is refering to because for large periods of the last few of games boredom has been the only thing on view.
the BBc had a great stat the other day in the Wales v New Zealand game that approx 12 mins or so had been taken up of the whole game just continuously resetting scrums.
The All Blacks and Australia and a to a certain extent England apart Rugby is in a piss poor state.

JME wrote:

Having watched and attended a couple of the (hugely overpriced) Autumn internationals I am questionig this skill McGurn is refering to because for large periods of the last few of games boredom has been the only thing on view.
the BBc had a great stat the other day in the Wales v New Zealand game that approx 12 mins or so had been taken up of the whole game just continuously resetting scrums.
The All Blacks and Australia and a to a certain extent England apart Rugby is in a piss poor state.

You're right about the scrums JME - the IRB is worse than the GAA for messing around with the rules

What they need to do in rugby is something like they did in Canadian Football...make the field bigger....

The problem with both the NFL in America and rugby here is that players are simply too big for the field they play on and there is not enough space...I dont know if any of you has ever watched canadian football, ive onyl seen the odd game here and there, but on first impressions there is a lot more space available and seems more exciting...Gone are the days when a player the size of Simon Geoghegan can play international rugby...

Getting back to the original article however, I do think GAA players could play any position in rugby apart from the front row...and maybe second row if they are vertically challenged. The main benefit /advantage GAA players have over our rugby cousins is our handling skills, in rugby good handling is seen as an excellent skill, fair enough, but in GAA handling is the bread and butter of the game....Going to use Rob Kearney as my example here, played minor foootball for Louth at midfield...obviously a good fielder of the ball, and this transfers to him being arguably the best full back in world rugby under a high ball....

Another advantage GAA players have if they chose to pick up the oval ball is simply kicking...again like handling it is the bread and butter of our game whereas in rugby it is viewed as more of an artform and only attempted by a few in the backline...

I know for a fact a lot of Junior rugby clubs are used by gaa players to keep fitness up during the winter...sure didnt anthony rainbow player for cill dara for a while a few years back during the off season...I see nothing wrong with it to be honest, i dont think we have a big threat from the GAA, rugby is a minority sport and will always stay that way

Anthony Rainbow played for Ireland at youth level in rugby... there are a number of former footballers playing rugby - Tommy Bowe, Shane Horgan and Geordan Murphy also played minor for their counties.

Rugby isn't a massive threat as long as the GAA keeps doing its business but there is an attitude at the top level of taking its status for granted at times which is a problem but though rugby is less and less an elitist game apart from Limerick, where it was always a working class game, it can never match what the GAA has, which is a club in every parish.

Having said that, it's a helluva lot bigger threat that takes way more GAA players than AFL (the three above plus Kearney for a start) but you'd think the way some people and the media coverage surrounding it goes, that Aussie Rules was like the Viking invasion or something.

Anyway, that's actually moving away from the thread a bit I guess... re the skills, I do think a lot of our better players could play rugby - you'd fancy Mikey Conway as an out-half for argument's sake. But you have to take McGurn's opinions seriously given his heavy involvement in both football and rugby at the elite level.

I dont think we have to take Mcgurns opinions seriously why should seen as he was with armagh this year and they made Monaghan look like 15 unstoppable superhumans which they obviously were not. With regards to the compromised rules it was only when Ireland lost sense of tactical instruction that they started playing football, then when they took the lead went back to tactics and lost, for gods sake it took a game and a half for Cluxton to realise that the short kick out was been eaten up, so I think Tohills inexperience and inability to react was as much a factor as players skill levels and probably more, they definitely had the footballing ability to win
As for the celebrity Mcgurn, well if the training that GAA players are doing is so off and he knows so much then what is he doing with Armagh, getting paid too much I'd say?

Ogie wrote:

Anthony Rainbow played for Ireland at youth level in rugby... there are a number of former footballers playing rugby - Tommy Bowe, Shane Horgan and Geordan Murphy also played minor for their counties.

Interesting. I didnt think Tommy Bowe would have been a GAA man judging by lack of enthusiasm he usually shows singing our national anthem

There might some basis to the argument that Gaelic mentors are sacrificing the basic skills of football to bulk up their team, but you have to laugh at the suggestion that rugby players possess more skill than your average GAA player.
Skills what skills?, grab ball, bull forward a few yards, fall to the ground, roll back ball to teammate, pass the ball 2 feet to your teammate on your left or right, who will then try to bull forward a few more yards, cue fall to the ground, roll the ball back and the whole sequence starts all over again, until the ref intervenes and awards a scrum.
The lineouts are a joke, players been lifted nearly as high as the main stand, and they like to call it an assist?.

As for their superior kicking skills, how many of the kicks in rugby are actually any good?, most of them can only kick it a few feet into touch and if they do actually get any distance on it, the ball seldoms finds touch just goes straight to an opponent the other end of the field.
All rugby teams have a Johnny Wilkinson type in their team, just like a gaelic football team has their regular place ball kicker.
Rugby is the most overrated game on the planet, its no coincidence that the vast majority of players on a rugby team are 6 foot something bull elephants with the odd exception. Rugby is not about skill, its mainly about physicality and organisation, in other words a snorefest!.

Thing about rugby is that it caters for all shapes & sizes and all levels of skill. If it was as easy as Kildarecat makes it out why hasn't the rest of the world copped onto it, you know how much them boys earn at provincial & country level??? Damn where was my €200k contract

Johnsmyth was obviously one of the guys calling for Geezer's head at numerous stages over the past three years judging by his ill-informed comments on McGurn....

I'd disagree with KC on his views of the skills of rugby but that's an opinion you're entitled to - I think rugby skills have improved phenomenally in the past decade especially, but I do agree that the rule tinkering has caused some issues - but you speak of a pop pass two feet left or right executed at speed while about to be mashed by an 18 stone lock, to another individual moving in a different direction at similar speed as if it's routine... I've seen my fair share of hand-passing drills in warm-ups and the ball hitting the deck regularly, not to mind in games... we see it all the time.

one rugby rule change that has helped means that you're not actually seeing as much kicked ball as you used to KC and I agree, that was a blight, just over and back to each other... but again, another rule change actually brought that about.

My feeling is that if you've ball skills, you'll be able to play both codes at some level but it's the nuances of the game that are the big issues - that's why most Irish lads fail to make it in the AFL.

Johnsmyth was obviously one of the guys calling for Geezer's head at numerous stages over the past three years judging by his ill-informed comments on McGurn....

Not at all Ogie, thanks making some crazy leap just because I think Mcgurn is overhyped. Next time you accuse someone of treason please be a bit more accurate and keep your own ill informed comments to yourself.

johnsmyth wrote:

I dont think we have to take Mcgurns opinions seriously why should seen as he was with armagh this year and they made Monaghan look like 15 unstoppable superhumans which they obviously were not. With regards to the compromised rules it was only when Ireland lost sense of tactical instruction that they started playing football, then when they took the lead went back to tactics and lost, for gods sake it took a game and a half for Cluxton to realise that the short kick out was been eaten up, so I think Tohills inexperience and inability to react was as much a factor as players skill levels and probably more, they definitely had the footballing ability to win
As for the celebrity Mcgurn, well if the training that GAA players are doing is so off and he knows so much then what is he doing with Armagh, getting paid too much I'd say?

McGurn is Armagh's strength and conditioning coach and has nothing to do with football coaching or, indeed, tactics.

Therefore, it is my duty to rule your post as bullshit.

johnsmyth wrote:

Johnsmyth was obviously one of the guys calling for Geezer's head at numerous stages over the past three years judging by his ill-informed comments on McGurn....

Not at all Ogie, thanks making some crazy leap just because I think Mcgurn is overhyped. Next time you accuse someone of treason please be a bit more accurate and keep your own ill informed comments to yourself.

Okay, my apologies John... if that's your real name? Now on what basis do you think McGurn is overhyped? Because according to my ill-informed, well, information, or dare I say it, knowledge, he is renowned by those who count - players, management, coaches - as one of the best conditioning experts around, taking in rugby league, rugby union and soccer (I am open to correction on that). So if he's good at conditioning, he will be good at conditioning in any sport - what makes him REALLY good is his ability to adapt his conditioning to take in the requirements of a specific sport.

This was his first year with Armagh and anyone who knows anything about conditioning knows it's not a one-year process... maybe three. Armagh may not have had a good championship, but they won Division 2, beating Down in the final. They are a work in progress. A4S has quite rightly pointed out that McGurn is the conditioning trainer and thus is not responsible for tactics, skills training, style of play or indeed team selection.

An example of how McGurn's mind works - and this wasn't conditioning specific as it happens - is that he brought pebbles into training and made each player keep them in his fist for the fist-passing drills... it was ingenious... any lad that went for the open-handed pass (this at a time when it was illegal, before the GAA changed that rule again) would have lost his pebble. It made players concentrate.

I'd expect Armagh to be major contenders in the next two or three years. They are still assimilating their youngsters. But whether they succeed or fail, it won't be primarily because of McGurn that's for sure
Anyway, the point is that McGurn is entitled to give an opinion, especially if he's asked for it.

Armagh4sam & Ogie,
NOWHERE in my post do I connect Mcgurn and tactics or coaching. I dislike how he seems to have a go at the very people he is training and in fact the skill level in general of intercounty Gaa players, where Mcgeeney recently defended it in the face of those people who were slating them.
Where I mentioned tactics was to do with the international series and Anthony Tohill.(note full stop here)
I have nothing against Armagh and I'm sure they'll be back to the fore soon but against Dublin also they were nothing of the Armagh we've grown to expect regarding power and tenacity.

Ogie it is my right to have an opinion even if it dosent match yours and theres nothing wrong with having a username thats not your real name, or are 99% of people on here missing something.

johnsmyth wrote:

Armagh4sam & Ogie,
NOWHERE in my post do I connect Mcgurn and tactics or coaching. I dislike how he seems to have a go at the very people he is training and in fact the skill level in general of intercounty Gaa players, where Mcgeeney recently defended it in the face of those people who were slating them.
Where I mentioned tactics was to do with the international series and Anthony Tohill.(note full stop here)
I have nothing against Armagh and I'm sure they'll be back to the fore soon but against Dublin also they were nothing of the Armagh we've grown to expect regarding power and tenacity.

Ogie it is my right to have an opinion even if it dosent match yours and theres nothing wrong with having a username thats not your real name, or are 99% of people on here missing something.

Fair enough lad but the sentence....

I dont think we have to take Mcgurns opinions seriously why should seen as he was with armagh this year and they made Monaghan look like 15 unstoppable superhumans which they obviously were not.


..would implicate McGurn as being responsible.

It wasn't fitness that cost us this year for sure.

Right Sam, you covered the McGurn part there....

John my man, have you had a humour bypass? Obviously Ogie isn't my real name either... John Smyth/Smith is the typical name a lad uses when he's bringing the bit on the side to a motel for a quickie or over-nighter - Mr and Mrs John Smyth... so no, I've no problem with it not being your real name.

Don't think I ever said anything about having a problem with your opinion either. I just presented some information about McGurn's standing, his abilities, his qualifications, his CV. Along with Craig White, he's pretty much up there at the very top in GB and Ireland anyway. So I have no problem with his comments... it wouldn't be because he comes from a rugby background that it's a problem though would it? Because there are plenty of people on here who pointed to the international rules for example as an indication that our skills had gotten worse big time. But look, that's just my opinion...

Fair enough, my opinion was that Ireland did have the footballing skills to beat Australia and were fit enough, I just think they were very negative and while it might work in gaa to pack the defence it just did'nt work and only when they tried to offload quickly and play more up the park were they effective.
I dont have issues with rugby in fact I'd watch a good game of rugby over soccer any day, and I too would disagree with Jackman that a gaelic footballer would fit in to a rugby set up, it would take time to get used to the game and the physical attributes required are something a professional rugby player may built towards since he was a teenager.

I lost my sence of humour when you accused me of being one of the lads calling for Mcgeeneys head.
The last point I'll make is that it dos'nt take 3 years to condition a gaa team, and if Mcgurn is so good then Armagh should be physically able to compete again this coming year, coz he'll be 2 years working on it then and I think he should get his own house in order before criticising gaa strength and conditioning trainers around the country. I'll be less sceptical of his articals when he proves his point.

Fair enough, I just though it was a knee jerk reaction and was equating it to them lads but I shouldn't have put you in there.

I would have to disagree about conditioning though... that's why people don't do the same thing every year because they're starting from a better base every time.

Having said that, A4S does say that fitness and conditioning wasn't Armagh's problem this year. They just played shit.

As for proving his point - I don't want to repeat myself, but he has... over and over and over again.

Your last comments on the IR I do agree with, although they have nothing to do with McGurn. We only got any joy when we threw off the shackles and committed numbers to support the man in possession and be available for the offload at pace.

johnsmyth wrote:

The last point I'll make is that it dos'nt take 3 years to condition a gaa team, and if Mcgurn is so good then Armagh should be physically able to compete again this coming year, coz he'll be 2 years working on it then and I think he should get his own house in order before criticising gaa strength and conditioning trainers around the country. I'll be less sceptical of his articals when he proves his point.

It wasn't oour problem this year.

It was in 09 and I think it was one of the main reasons there was a push to get him in.

In Peter McDonnell's last game in 09 the team looked incredibly sluggish and no surprise we lost to the min extra time.

This year we were much sharper in that regard, it was other areas that cost us.