KILDARE v DOWN: NFL Div 2 Sunday 1st Feb, Newbridge

Freddy Krueger wrote:

As Rex states this is JR's 3rd year with Kildare. He should not be blindfolded any longer.

It's a clear as night follows day that we have serious serious problems at the back. Even in his first year with McGeeney the floodgates began to open at the back. The concession of soft frees, our tackling, conceding ground to attackers and the absolute elephant in the room the actual scoring rate against us is completely off the charts by any standard.

This has come no where near to being addressed. Until it is, JR is a dead man walking in terms of his Kildare Management role. It cannot continue like it is.

If people fail to see this then it is them who have a problem and not me.

What would your solution to the problem be Freddy ?

jj wrote:

Freddy Krueger wrote:

As Rex states this is JR's 3rd year with Kildare. He should not be blindfolded any longer.

It's a clear as night follows day that we have serious serious problems at the back. Even in his first year with McGeeney the floodgates began to open at the back. The concession of soft frees, our tackling, conceding ground to attackers and the absolute elephant in the room the actual scoring rate against us is completely off the charts by any standard.

This has come no where near to being addressed. Until it is, JR is a dead man walking in terms of his Kildare Management role. It cannot continue like it is.

If people fail to see this then it is them who have a problem and not me.

What would your solution to the problem be Freddy ?

Bring back McGeeney!

It was the Cork game in 2012 when the wheels really came off defensively and we haven't been the same since. Maybe it was when Grimley left our set-up as I know he used to do a lot of work on tackling with the players. Either way, it's up to Jason to get improve things now or we're going nowhere.

I think we have good backs. Peter Kelly, Ollie Lyons, Ciaran Fitzpatrick and Eoin Doyle are well capable of marking their men, Fergal Conway looked a real defender last year and Kevin Murnaghan and Mick O'Grady have impressed me recently. I think our main problem is we don't put enough pressure on the ball out the field. We seem to drop off the opposition and give them a free run up to our 45 and most good teams will create a chance from there. I'd like to see us try to win the ball back as quickly and as high up the pitch as possible. I don't think our tackling is good enough either (yellow cards for Leper and Niall Kelly for poor attempts at tackles) so we should be looking at getting a better coach in.

Fully agree on the players collectively lacking a mental toughness. How much can we put that down to the manager though? Sadly it has been that way with Kildare teams for as long as I can remember.

We had the most decorated manager in Gaelic Football manager over us from 1991-1994 and 1997-2002. It was only in his second period in charge that I have ever seen a Kildare team that could consistently grind out results in tight matches. There were plenty of collapses and no shows during his first stint like 1991 in Drogheda and 1994 in the drawn game against Dublin. Kieran McGeeney was widely regarded as a player with exceptional mental strength and resolve yet his Kildare team also lost out in many big games that they could have gotten over the line in - Dublin and Tyrone 2009, Down 2010, Dublin and Donegal 2011.

Ryan has made tactical errors during his reign, some of them fairly spectacular, but I'm not sure we can attribute as much of this collective mental frailty to him as some are. If you look at the players coming through, the u21 Leinster winning team from 2013 collapsed spectacularly in the All Ireland semi final. The minor team from that year also imploded in their quarter final. The players he is inheriting do not have a great history of showing mental resolve when it really matters. The burden of history weighs heavily on young shoulders.

Some good points kickingking.

The question I believe should be asked is , is the current set up getting the most out of the players we have available to us? Malachy O Rourke being a case in point with Monaghan. I wouldn't be in favour of going back down the KMcG road, not that we could anyways.

If you're not set up correctly at the back first and foremost in a system where everyone knows their role and its absolutely drilled into them the importance of being disciplined in the tackle and concede no soft free you are always going to be perceived as mentally weak because you will never be in a position of control over the  game.

We were never ever in control of the game against Down. We never dictated any aspect of it and we were the home team.

Heres a qustion, Had we scored that penalty would you have been confident of closing out the game? I wouldn't have. And why is that? Because we always look vulnerable . We always look suspect to concede a goal at any stage during the course of a game.

Why do we concede so many needless frees? Does the person giving away the free not have faith in the man behind him? Has the players not got faith in the way we are wet up and our ability to keep put a potential goal scoring opportunity.

Before McGuinnes took over Donegal, they were an absolute basketcase. A busted flush living off an All Ireland in the 90's. He transformed their mindset by changing the way they play and it was based purely and limiting the scoring threat and ability of the teams they played , a massive belief in the system they implemented and obviously Fitness.

I firmly believe the mental frailties of the players is down completely to JR. I don't believe they buy into him or his methods. Its from that you gain your confidence and belief which will instill mental strength and self belief.

The mentality thing is probably a bit of a mixed bag really. Basically though we failed to get across the line in winnable games before Jason Ryan arrived and we’ll fail to do so after he goes.

For the most part our squad is made up of lads only a year or two out of under 21, slightly older lads who are relatively new to the intercounty scene and older lads again who have for the most part drifted in and out of form over the last couple of years.

There’s been a lack of leadership for a while now, without the likes of Doyle, Earley and even Roli there doesn’t seem to be somebody taking control, showing a bit of leadership and driving on the younger lads.

The more experienced members of the panel; Leper, Bolton, Smith, Paidi, Kelly, Flats etc have for a number of reasons been in and out of the team and in and out of form over the last few seasons. At the same time they were involved pretty much throughout the McGeeney years and before. Keeping up that level of drive, motivation and focus for so long is bound to take its toll mentally and physically.

It took until last year for two players, from what was probably the most talented under 21 team we’ll see in this county, to nail down places in the starting 15. Niall Kelly when fit, Cribbin, Dowling and Fogarty etc have all at different times done more than enough to earn a starting place, but apart from Conway and Moolick none of the team that won Leinster has done enough to claim a definite starting position as their own. Luckily enough these two have helped address two of our problem areas.

The fact that we’ve been lacking leadership and stability certainly wouldn’t have helped these guys with the transition from under 21 to senior. They were thrown in at the deep end and almost expected to become leaders themselves.

I don’t mean this to come across as sounding harsh or as if I’m having a pop at the young lads because it’s meant to be the opposite. We need to give them time to settle into senior football. It’s different for teams like Dublin, Kerry or maybe Mayo where a handful of young lads might come through together, and are playing alongside lads who’ve been playing at the top level for years and have the experience of winning All Ireland’s and provincial titles behind them.

Look at the difference in Dublin team between 2013 and last year. McCaffrey, Mannion and Kilkenny were all in the running for Young Player of the Year in 2013, last year they didn’t feature as much or as successfully (admittedly due to injury in Kilkenny’s case). Fair enough some of this can be attributed to a prolonged under 21 campaign last year in contrast to pretty much 100% focus and involvement with the seniors the year before. It still shows that even lads who’ve won All Ireland’s at underage level, playing beside All Stars and All Ireland winners can see their form dip when it comes to senior football.

Last year Bolton and Smith looked to be back to their best. Paidi looks to be as important as ever and seems to be a perennially underrated player around the middle. Peter Kelly back fit is a massive boost and getting game time into himself and Leper this early in the year could be vital going forward over the next few months.

Against Tyrone last year and Down last weekend, the 2 minutes meltdowns can be partially put down to a lack of experience and partially to individual mistakes. I don’t think it’s the type of thing that can be automatically be attributed to lacking mental strength or used as a stick to beat the manager with.

Over the last two years we’ve introduced almost an entire under 21 team into the senior set up. On top of that lads like Mulhall, McNally, O’Grady, Doyle, Fitzpatrick and Keith Cribbin have all looked like being starters at different times. Some of them might be a few years older but in terms of their intercounty careers they’re still relatively young. We’re all sick of hearing it at this stage but it’s going to take time for things to fall into place. There’s plenty of options and competition for places, players look leaner and sharper which will hopefully mean a bit more pace being introduced to the middle eight over the next few weeks.

I expect us to beat Westmeath, Cavan, Roscommon and Laois. After that we’d need at least one other win to be in contention for promotion. Meath are far from world beaters, and gypsy like curse aside, I don’t think there’s much to fear with Galway. Promotion is still possible if we want it bad enough.

if_in_doubt wrote:

The mentality thing is probably a bit of a mixed bag really. Basically though we failed to get across the line in winnable games before Jason Ryan arrived and we’ll fail to do so after he goes.

For the most part our squad is made up of lads only a year or two out of under 21, slightly older lads who are relatively new to the intercounty scene and older lads again who have for the most part drifted in and out of form over the last couple of years.

There’s been a lack of leadership for a while now, without the likes of Doyle, Earley and even Roli there doesn’t seem to be somebody taking control, showing a bit of leadership and driving on the younger lads.

The more experienced members of the panel; Leper, Bolton, Smith, Paidi, Kelly, Flats etc have for a number of reasons been in and out of the team and in and out of form over the last few seasons. At the same time they were involved pretty much throughout the McGeeney years and before. Keeping up that level of drive, motivation and focus for so long is bound to take its toll mentally and physically.

It took until last year for two players, from what was probably the most talented under 21 team we’ll see in this county, to nail down places in the starting 15. Niall Kelly when fit, Cribbin, Dowling and Fogarty etc have all at different times done more than enough to earn a starting place, but apart from Conway and Moolick none of the team that won Leinster has done enough to claim a definite starting position as their own. Luckily enough these two have helped address two of our problem areas.

The fact that we’ve been lacking leadership and stability certainly wouldn’t have helped these guys with the transition from under 21 to senior. They were thrown in at the deep end and almost expected to become leaders themselves.

I don’t mean this to come across as sounding harsh or as if I’m having a pop at the young lads because it’s meant to be the opposite. We need to give them time to settle into senior football. It’s different for teams like Dublin, Kerry or maybe Mayo where a handful of young lads might come through together, and are playing alongside lads who’ve been playing at the top level for years and have the experience of winning All Ireland’s and provincial titles behind them.

Look at the difference in Dublin team between 2013 and last year. McCaffrey, Mannion and Kilkenny were all in the running for Young Player of the Year in 2013, last year they didn’t feature as much or as successfully (admittedly due to injury in Kilkenny’s case). Fair enough some of this can be attributed to a prolonged under 21 campaign last year in contrast to pretty much 100% focus and involvement with the seniors the year before. It still shows that even lads who’ve won All Ireland’s at underage level, playing beside All Stars and All Ireland winners can see their form dip when it comes to senior football.

Last year Bolton and Smith looked to be back to their best. Paidi looks to be as important as ever and seems to be a perennially underrated player around the middle. Peter Kelly back fit is a massive boost and getting game time into himself and Leper this early in the year could be vital going forward over the next few months.

Against Tyrone last year and Down last weekend, the 2 minutes meltdowns can be partially put down to a lack of experience and partially to individual mistakes. I don’t think it’s the type of thing that can be automatically be attributed to lacking mental strength or used as a stick to beat the manager with.

Over the last two years we’ve introduced almost an entire under 21 team into the senior set up. On top of that lads like Mulhall, McNally, O’Grady, Doyle, Fitzpatrick and Keith Cribbin have all looked like being starters at different times. Some of them might be a few years older but in terms of their intercounty careers they’re still relatively young. We’re all sick of hearing it at this stage but it’s going to take time for things to fall into place. There’s plenty of options and competition for places, players look leaner and sharper which will hopefully mean a bit more pace being introduced to the middle eight over the next few weeks.

I expect us to beat Westmeath, Cavan, Roscommon and Laois. After that we’d need at least one other win to be in contention for promotion. Meath are far from world beaters, and gypsy like curse aside, I don’t think there’s much to fear with Galway. Promotion is still possible if we want it bad enough.

Agree with pretty much all of that. A sane, realistic assessment.

Exellent reading IID.. But I wouldnt be as positive as You are of beating Roscommon and Cavan.

I agree with SeamusMurphy, excellent reading, but Roscommon, Meath and Galway are going to provide us with bigger tests than Down. Roscommon beat us at u21 a few years back and alot of that team are now plying their trade with the senior team. Meath just love beating us and will be well up for this game after their collapse v Galway. Galway owe us one after the last game, a shocking penalty decision saved our bacon that day. I fear for us this year but hopefully my fears are misplaced.