Arguing about former , current and future managers thread

Think you have fairly hit the nail on the head there Mick Murphy.


Missing Key defenders throughout the league. O'Grady being only consistent performer there. Hopefully now coming into the summer Foley, Lyons, Kelly, Bolton and McGrillen have their injury woes behind them and that shores things up considerably and if our summer progresses we might have Eoin Doyle back in contention too.

A Big problem i thought during the league was our half forward line. With the above mentioned defenders back it will allow Paul Cribben to move in to strengthen this line allied to a return to fitness and form of Leper.

"misguided levels of expectations levels even though we have won no adult Leinster's or All-Ireland for donkey's years and have a misguided level of expectations through runs through the back door but still when we came up against a top class side we failed and have lost Leinster Championship games in the recent present to Wicklow and Louth."

This really annoys me. Really does. Basically means that for all we accomplished the last six years we are still a county that think like losers, which in turn will lead to losing. Should have been McGeeney's greatest accomplishment to get us to stop thinking as if we are inferior, and he tried hard enough and did enough on the field to change it, but seems we've already slipped back into the poor us, we aren't good enough and negativity. I mean why highlight those two games and not the quarter-finals where we lived with the best, the semi-final in a year we could have won, the underage success, the running Dublin close? And why not use that and say we should be the team we were in recent years, we should always expect and if we fall short we are doing something wrong and need to change it?

Tommykeegan complaining about people being negative & having inferior attitude, the guy who has tipped Louth to beat us, the guy who has consistently berated the current set-up and team, remind us of what you said after the Tyrone league match, says it all really.

Stonecold wrote:

... remind us of what you said after the Tyrone league match, says it all really.

.. or after the Donegal defeat in 2011.

Cause and effect. I'm not part of the team, I'm saying it as it is based on performances and results. We shouldn't expect a whole lot, yes, but crucially I'm saying after recent years that should cause us to ask questions, not just say "Ah, this is just how it's always been". And I said after the Tyrone match what happened. Was right. Just as I said after McGeeney what would happen and have so far been right. You are using a man being 100 per cent correct to attack him with now, slowly running out of arrows methinks. I said after the 2011 Donegal defeat we bottled it badly and threw it away, because we were at a level where we could and in that case should have been beating teams that were in the top few.

Tommy to me misguided levels of expectations come from people thinking the following are acceptable and constitute success

-1/4 finals where we have lived with the best - also know as getting to the last 8 team in Ireland but failing at this stage

-the semi-final in the year we should have won - 'should have' says it all -again no medals for that

-running Dublin close - again no medals for that

I am realistic in my expectations for Kildare football and i will never say we are miles ahead of teams like Louth etc. when we are not. I absolutely hate arrogance and excuses which is what we have been living off for some time now.

To me the current crop of players although talented have no real medals to show for a lot of sacrifices which is a shame but a fact so Kildare need to figure out some way of turning a talented bunch of 'nice' players into a ruthless, hungry team who will not accept or make excuses and understand the above does not constitute major success or thinking we are a 'powerhouse' of GAA.

We are not and unless every player and management understands that no matter who you play you need to fight and scrap for everything. Louth (and similar counties) owe us nothing and will not fear us in Championship football this year or in any of the last 6 years contrary to what a lot of Kildare people think.

Okay, well I find it odd that last year the current crop of players were almost neck-and-neck with Tyrone. A year extra should improve those players yet we can't live with anyone we were going well against last year. Circles here but a second year with a young team should see them get better, not worse, the removal of a manager should only happen if there's someone better to step in with a clear medium-term vision, not a one-year quick "fix" and so on. I believe the players we have should be capable of beating Louth this year, but I think regression and mismanagement at county board and senior management level mean we won't.

Tommy you say we bottled it against Donegal, from my memory we lost that game from 3 instances. The disallowed goal outside Kildare's control, a mix up during a Donegal substitution bad luck maybe, but the main reason we tried to foul out cynically the second half of extra time. Now either the team decided to employ this or were instructed by management but surely the greatest manager ever wouldn't have done this.
The current management team are not being given a fair crack of the whip. Challenge games are the new guide to where we are?

I've never said challenge games. I also said I expected the county board to have a plan that involved replacing a manager only with a better one and I also said I expected whoever took over to know what they were getting into, to have a plan to bring things to a new level, and to deliver at least adequate results from the off, not wipe away all the good work done. Yes, the championship could deliver that, it's just my opinion it won't and all we can do is speculate based on reality until we start our summer.

In fairness to you Tommy it wasn't you who cast their vote on the challenge games. You do however state that the new manager should be better than the previous, a noble aspiration but one that fails in all sports. I infer that you believe that the current manager is a grade below our previous. I personally do not agree with this and I don't see anywhere their track records show it.
IMO McGeeney was super at preparing a team but was very limited on match days I always felt he played the game in his head beforehand and didn't believe the evidence on the field in front of him. He alienated himself from the clubs and that was the sword he perished on ultimately.
I can't really give you my opinion on Ryan as his best years were with Wex and I didn't really care what he was doing there. After 2015 is the time to judge his tenure with us.

TommyKeegan wrote:

Okay, well I find it odd that last year the current crop of players were almost neck-and-neck with Tyrone. A year extra should improve those players yet we can't live with anyone we were going well against last year. Circles here but a second year with a young team should see them get better, not worse, the removal of a manager should only happen if there's someone better to step in with a clear medium-term vision, not a one-year quick "fix" and so on. I believe the players we have should be capable of beating Louth this year, but I think regression and mismanagement at county board and senior management level mean we won't.

I'm confused here - didn't we lose 3 times to Tyrone last year? Neck and neck? No more so than this year when we lost by a point or two (which seems pretty close to neck and neck).

Can't believe this thread still going strong 16 pages later.

Had them on the ropes in a league semi-final down the stretch and on the ropes of a qualifier. I'd rather heartbreaking defeats than the sort of campaign we just have and I believe we'll continue to have.

Jesus we had them by the bol**x this year so obviously we improved

Think they were fairly on the ropes in Newbridge this spring TK though were they not?
I don't recall us feeling we had been the better team in any of last year's 3 games.

Better put smokey - thanks !

Tommy are you the guy who dressed up as the grim reaper stalking Moyes in the Everton v united game by any chance? If so i expect to see you doing the same to poor oul Jason come the Louth game. 

No but there wasn't much of a difference to be fair. I thought if we could find a little bit extra we'd have pushed on. From six down approaching half-time to level entering the last quarter, thought we had them in the ropes and leaving that night I felt hopeful because I thought perhaps a bit of nous and experience was the key difference and if we were so close to matching a Tyrone team further along in their development, we'd make an impact this season. Not to the point of winning it or anything, but thought a young team would push on, retain Division One status, make a Leinster final and an All Ireland quarter-final and they would be serious foundations. We didn't do either of the first two and I don't think we'll make a Leinster semi-final.

Smokey, using a league semi-final and third round qualifier against an All Ireland semi-finalist merely as an example of where we were versus the worst defence in the nation, relegation and bizarre tactics heading into a championship you'd be mad to be confident about. If you think this is like with like, you must be part of the county board or management team.

Not quite WhiteStars but felt that wasn't about giving him time, he just didn't fit. Fine manager at maximising potential within boundaries but not one to push boundaries as a top team requires (Moyes, not Ryan!).

Tommy not following your paragraph about my input, but I can absolutely state I am not never was and almost certainly never will be part of county board or any county management team.

All I'm saying is, this year you'd have expected from county board perspective who were changing managers for an improvement, and from a young team that didn't at all have a bad year last year to mature and take a step forward, not two steps back. None of that has happened so to suggest saying Louth will be a struggle is negativity is to misuse the word. It's a prediction based on all available evidence which is hardly negative.

Read it again Tommy see what u meant. I would contend that we have watched bizzare tactics more than in this year lately. Nowhere did I say I was confident but I do think we will beat Louth.. Meath expected then we will be underdogs in a 50: 50 game and I wud be hopeful. After that I'd be very afraid

I'd oddly fancy beating Meath more than Louth given we are coming in cold here with just bad results in proper games, a lack of confidence and surely huge uncertainty in the panel. Win might banish some of that.

On a side not, been dealing with the guys beyond the Belgian development plan for Belgian underage football over the last few days. Fascinating insight, huge science, great attitude and unity and a lot of sense and psychology. Different sport, but started with the filming and analysis of 1,500 hours of games at all level a decade ago, and has been moved to the point you will see in this... http://www.aefca.eu/sites/default/files/AEFCA%20Symposium%202012_Praesentation_Bob%20Browaeys.pdf


Wonder could something similar be done in terms of GAA, where you stagger development, countywide the clubs don't buy into winning until 13 or so because it's about developing creativity and tactics and so on can stifle that, get teams across the county playing a similar style in teenage years that allows best for player development and so on. Benefit to clubs would be very strong senior teams and benefit to county would be obvious. We also have a university in the county with some find minds. PS that link is really worth a read, phenomenal stuff.

Cheers for the link Tommy, good piece that, admittedly only skimmed through it so far but the bits on putting an emphasis on fun, development of players and coaches and the stats on maturity and growth of players look particularly interesting.

Following from it here's the ECA report on youth academies in Europe, gives a really interesting insight into some of the big ones; Ajax, Arsenal, Barca and Bayern as well as Standard Liege and a couple of smaller clubs.

Report on Youth Academies in Europe

Expanding on the attitude, unity and psychology side of things there's certainly some aspects that could, and probably should be transferred into the GAA. Clearly defined visions, goals and a philosophy that influences all age grades, methods for measuring success (aside from trophies etc) and  a consistent model for coaches to follow. I suppose that might be a reason why the majority of continental clubs follow a structure that involves a Director of Football to oversee things.

I remember talking to a lad who would have worked on the mental and psychological side of things with GAA teams here and with football clubs in England, and one of the biggest problems the GAA has he said was the way things are done at underage levels.

Put sweets, medals and trophies on three different tables, let the kids, parents and coaches into the room and see what table they go for. Kids want the sweets, parents want the medals and coaches want the trophies was his own viewpoint and I can't really disagree with it.

Obviously the Go Games are a good initiative, and the GAA's own policy for youth coaches says don't get preoccupied with winning but we're still a long way off solely focusing on the development (mentally, physically, tactically and technically) of the players when it comes to coaching.

As an aside, maybe we should have modelled Hawkfield on the Ajax training academy...

Jayson Rhine wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

On a side note, was just from a cold, non-opinionated perspective going through Ryan's managerial record because we all remember 2008 and certain outings against Dublin, none of which were won. Couple of points on this, firstly let's not pretend his Wexford side were a group of bad footballers turned into something good as Masterson was a very good goalkeeper, Wallace a superb full-back, Morrissey and Morris two excellent wing-backs while Barry, Flynn, Lyng, Banville and Forde were amongst the forwards. Secondly, that 2008 year was remarkable as the county firstly got promoted to Division Two and reached a Leinster final and All Ireland semi-final. You cannot underplay that achievement but I was wondering what then and was that the exception, rule or in between?

Well in terms of the league, they didn't win a game the following season in Division Two and it took him three more campaigns to get them out of Division Three. As for championship football, in 2009 they lost a Leinster quarter-final and second round qualifier to Roscommon; in 2010 they again lost a Leinster quarter-final and lost a third-round qualifier to Cork kicking 0-5; in 2011 they reached the easiest Leinster final in history and lost their only qualifier to Limerick; while in 2012 they reached a Leinster semi-final and lost a second round qualifier to Tipperary.

I thought his tactics in several Dublin games were excellent even if he couldn't instill the steel in the team to get them over the line. But outside of that from 2009-2012, he won less than half of his championship games and aside from near-misses his championship victories in their totality were Offaly by one, Galway by one, Longford by one, and London, Offaly, Westmeath and Carlow well.

So 2008 exception or rule? And is there enough there to suddenly expect a change come summer and to give time to right the many wrongs thus far should this season turn into a write off?

Nothing like cold hard facts to end an argument.

See based on the above I can see Tommy's viewpoint in threads and he has always articulated it well. I don't necessarily agree with all of his views and but do actually take into account what he says, don't have the gift he does for putting it down on paper.

But you are a different kettle of fish. Kinda like something Mac said summing up the game yesterday on KFM, not verbatim but "If it wasn't played in Croke Park but in the likes of Navan it could have been a different result". Like hello 15 point win and people still begrudge it and some people will still begrudge the current manager, they are waiting until we are beaten to kick off again. I'm not really bothered whether you think my views are weak, I know where your are though.