Arguing about former , current and future managers thread

TommyKeegan wrote:

On a side note, was just from a cold, non-opinionated perspective going through Ryan's managerial record because we all remember 2008 and certain outings against Dublin, none of which were won. Couple of points on this, firstly let's not pretend his Wexford side were a group of bad footballers turned into something good as Masterson was a very good goalkeeper, Wallace a superb full-back, Morrissey and Morris two excellent wing-backs while Barry, Flynn, Lyng, Banville and Forde were amongst the forwards. Secondly, that 2008 year was remarkable as the county firstly got promoted to Division Two and reached a Leinster final and All Ireland semi-final. You cannot underplay that achievement but I was wondering what then and was that the exception, rule or in between?

Well in terms of the league, they didn't win a game the following season in Division Two and it took him three more campaigns to get them out of Division Three. As for championship football, in 2009 they lost a Leinster quarter-final and second round qualifier to Roscommon; in 2010 they again lost a Leinster quarter-final and lost a third-round qualifier to Cork kicking 0-5; in 2011 they reached the easiest Leinster final in history and lost their only qualifier to Limerick; while in 2012 they reached a Leinster semi-final and lost a second round qualifier to Tipperary.

I thought his tactics in several Dublin games were excellent even if he couldn't instill the steel in the team to get them over the line. But outside of that from 2009-2012, he won less than half of his championship games and aside from near-misses his championship victories in their totality were Offaly by one, Galway by one, Longford by one, and London, Offaly, Westmeath and Carlow well.

So 2008 exception or rule? And is there enough there to suddenly expect a change come summer and to give time to right the many wrongs thus far should this season turn into a write off?

Nothing like cold hard facts to end an argument.

Ahlethimout wrote:

Baba, you seem to relish the thought of this Kildare team failing?  I looked back over previous threads and you were nowhere to be seen when Kildare were on the back of the Mayo win and a good O' Byrne cup.  Looks to me like you were just waiting for things to go wrong so you could go on the offensive.  You're arguments are completely totalitarian and you refuse to see any other pov that isn't ridiculous pro-mcgeeney propoganda.    

You didn't look hard enough then. I have said many times I hope I'm proved wrong. Unfortunately nothing so far has even remotely had me thinking that is going to be the case. 
Do you think when I spent hours in a car going to the likes of Derry to watch us flounder like a fish out of water I was happy to see it. I have missed one match all year and that's Westmeath. A lot of money spent on watching rubbish tactics that fail to evolve to attempt to fix our issues.
By the way my argument is not totalitarian its just my view. Why should I change it. Nothing I've seen has proved me wrong. I'm not a flip flopper like some people. Happy to change their views on a whim. 
There is no need for pro McGeeney propaganda as you call it. Until Ryan shows a modicum of improving the team then there is no need. All I do is compare.

As Tommy has written, the cold hard facts show Ryan is a bang average manager. That won't change this year or anytime soon. Lads hoping for some kind of miracle come June and July are going to be very disappointed. When that happens it won't be the likes of me moaning on a forum that you will have to worry about dissecting Ryan's ways.

Cold hard facts huh, McGeeney 6 years 2 O'Byrne Cups & 1 Div 2 title, worst thumping in 80 years of championship. Ryan 8 months 1 O'Byrne Cup thats the sum of it

Fact is a fact and nothing else surrounding the fact has any implications on the bigger picture. The fact is Jason Ryan took no hopers from division 3 like the lads mentioned in tks post and brought them to the all Ireland semi final. Apart from Mattie ford and lyng the rest were fairly average and Ryan got more from them than what was ever expected.

The unwillingness of exKildare players to get involved with our underage set up is a big bug bear of mine. I have posted this on several occasions, there is lots of good people involved, but jaysus imagine the effect on an u14,16 or minor player having a Johnny, Dermot, Anthony or Rollie for example involved.

Seamus agree with you assessment of where we are at the moment and would also agree we have far to much fear of the Dubs

As for the opposing view's on the current or former manager, does anyone have a opinion on the role of the players in all of this, like yourself Baba I too have travelled the length and breath of Ireland watching Kildare teams of all ages, we don't seem to develop the fear of failure till we reach minor, leaving your McGeeney or Ryan campaign aside do you have an opinion on why this is the case

johnsmyth wrote:

Fact is a fact and nothing else surrounding the fact has any implications on the bigger picture. The fact is Jason Ryan took no hopers from division 3 like the lads mentioned in tks post and brought them to the all Ireland semi final. Apart from Mattie ford and lyng the rest were fairly average and Ryan got more from them than what was ever expected.

I think its clearly stated earlier in the thread that that Wexford team had a lot of very good players and were most definitely not no hopers.

Jayson Rhine wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

On a side note, was just from a cold, non-opinionated perspective going through Ryan's managerial record because we all remember 2008 and certain outings against Dublin, none of which were won. Couple of points on this, firstly let's not pretend his Wexford side were a group of bad footballers turned into something good as Masterson was a very good goalkeeper, Wallace a superb full-back, Morrissey and Morris two excellent wing-backs while Barry, Flynn, Lyng, Banville and Forde were amongst the forwards. Secondly, that 2008 year was remarkable as the county firstly got promoted to Division Two and reached a Leinster final and All Ireland semi-final. You cannot underplay that achievement but I was wondering what then and was that the exception, rule or in between?

Well in terms of the league, they didn't win a game the following season in Division Two and it took him three more campaigns to get them out of Division Three. As for championship football, in 2009 they lost a Leinster quarter-final and second round qualifier to Roscommon; in 2010 they again lost a Leinster quarter-final and lost a third-round qualifier to Cork kicking 0-5; in 2011 they reached the easiest Leinster final in history and lost their only qualifier to Limerick; while in 2012 they reached a Leinster semi-final and lost a second round qualifier to Tipperary.

I thought his tactics in several Dublin games were excellent even if he couldn't instill the steel in the team to get them over the line. But outside of that from 2009-2012, he won less than half of his championship games and aside from near-misses his championship victories in their totality were Offaly by one, Galway by one, Longford by one, and London, Offaly, Westmeath and Carlow well.

So 2008 exception or rule? And is there enough there to suddenly expect a change come summer and to give time to right the many wrongs thus far should this season turn into a write off?

Nothing like cold hard facts to end an argument.

In relation to the quality of the Wexford team I think he is way off and they are certainly not cold hard facts. Wallace for example was one of the slowest full backs I have ever seen. That Wexford team had a few very good players like Ciaran Lyng who imo was the only top quality player they had. Mattie Forde hardly played. There midfield players were very ordinary as was the team in general but sprinked with a few very good ones like Redmond Barry and Jason Ryan got the best out of them.

Westside, just because someone stated that they had a lot of good players does not mean its an agreed fact. To say morris was an excellent wing back is some stretch. Wallace Superb? I don't mean to belittle them but to talk them up is rediculous too. The midfielders were fairly cumbersome to say the least. But theres no denying they had an effective game plan and applied themselves to the best of their limited ability. Along with a couple of top quality players like lyng and Forde.

ballyboy wrote:

The unwillingness of exKildare players to get involved with our underage set up is a big bug bear of mine. I have posted this on several occasions, there is lots of good people involved, but jaysus imagine the effect on an u14,16 or minor player having a Johnny, Dermot, Anthony or Rollie for example involved.

I've been banging on about this for years. Are men like those named above being asked to get involved in the underage system? I know Rainbow was with the u21s for a while but putting them over an u14 panel and letting them develop their managerial and coaching style with them all the way up to minor or u21 would be so much more beneficial.

Padraig Brennan was highly rated when he was one of Glenn's selectors with the u21s in 2008 and he hasn't been involved since to my knowledge. Karl Ennis was with the juniors last year. Just because they were inter county players does not necessarily mean they will make great coaches or managers but they do have that all important experience of what it takes to play at the highest level for Kildare and the ability to impart that to young lads would count for a lot.

There seems to be a paucity of potential future Kildare managers who are native to the county and this could go some way towards addressing that.

kickingking wrote:

ballyboy wrote:

The unwillingness of exKildare players to get involved with our underage set up is a big bug bear of mine. I have posted this on several occasions, there is lots of good people involved, but jaysus imagine the effect on an u14,16 or minor player having a Johnny, Dermot, Anthony or Rollie for example involved.

I've been banging on about this for years. Are men like those named above being asked to get involved in the underage system? I know Rainbow was with the u21s for a while but putting them over an u14 panel and letting them develop their managerial and coaching style with them all the way up to minor or u21 would be so much more beneficial.

Padraig Brennan was highly rated when he was one of Glenn's selectors with the u21s in 2008 and he hasn't been involved since to my knowledge. Karl Ennis was with the juniors last year. Just because they were inter county players does not necessarily mean they will make great coaches or managers but they do have that all important experience of what it takes to play at the highest level for Kildare and the ability to impart that to young lads would count for a lot.

There seems to be a paucity of potential future Kildare managers who are native to the county and this could go some way towards addressing that.

How many senior clubs in Kildare currently have an ' outsider' manager, a good few I'd say and this is the same when it comes to our inter county teams in Kildare, the bottom line is that there is a little or no expenses paid to a club man managing his/her club team and the same applies with the inter county teams compared to managing teams from other clubs/counties.

I heard the question posed once about"names"getting involved with the development squads and the reply was it wouldn't be enough of a challenge due to the lack of championship and number of games played

Lillyboy, that's a reasonable reply if they were taking the short term view, do you imagine Dessie Farrell gave that reply when asked, it would appear to me he didn't, as for the post regarding the lack of expenses paid to home grown men explain to me how that applies to Tyrone, Donegal, Dublin, Kerry, Cork, Mayo all vastly more successful than our selves, could it be that the mind set in our county doesn't give it self to doing something that there is very little personal gain in, financial or otherwise. Could it be that deep down not everyone with a stake in Kildare Gaa is willing to go the last yard and I apply this to supporters and players alike

Why is it there is always a moan regarding fund raising for the county teams, why is it that with all the preparation our teams more often than not come up short, leaving aside the debate about current/recent managers THAT is a historical fact.

Its not just a County thing probably every club will moan about former players not putting it back in

Agree Micky but I recall being at a coaching seminar last year, one of the main speaker introduced himself as follows, '' Good evening my name is Osin McConville I am the manager of the Crossmaglen u 8 team, when asked what was the secret of their success his reply was '' simple you put your best coaches with your youngest teams, if they are coached properly at a young age they are easily managed at adult level. Could you argue with that ??

Very true Ballyboy its easy build on 'good foundations'

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=215315

Geezers hands all over this one surely !!

jj wrote:

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=215315

Geezers hands all over this one surely !!

+1

Lads Lads Lads............how dare you suggest such a thing.....      where in the world did ye get that conclusion from....    

No No No Kieran is always focused on football on a whole within a county and would take the needs of the grass root clubs seriously............................... That Grimley!!!

micky murphy wrote:

No No No Kieran is always focused on football on a whole within a county and would take the needs of the grass root clubs seriously............................... That Grimley!!!

      ... Says it all really.

The only manager in Ireland doing it sure. Like all civil wars, one side is as bad as the other!

Come back in here every now and again just to see how many pages this thread has got to. Still going strong and into double digits in page numbers now. Keep it up lads - championships only around the corner - need to keep in shape!

Jebus ballyboy think you are being a bit harsh on ex kildare players with your "unwillingness" comment,sure, it would be great to see them getting involved with coaching young boys and girls,but generally speaking, these guys have probably been involved with various county teams/dev squads from 14/15 upwards not to mention playing for their clubs from an earlier age,a lot of them may now have young families,so maybe they deserve a break and when they recharge the batteries, welcome them back into the fold ?

Indeed a recharging of the batteries is well deserved, but I'm not being hard on ex Kildare player just home grown Kildare players. It has always been my view that it's the locals that do the least and give out the most. My question again is what is your view on this and why do they choose to cut their teeth in counties like Waterford and Carlow for example.

jj wrote:

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=215315

Geezers hands all over this one surely !!

How many Kildare players been lining out for clubs in league games out of curiosity?