Cork v Kildare

When things quicken up so will our opponents. I can understand the concerns over our defence. We have been wide open there ever since 2012 (Meath, Cork) for me and until that is sorted we're going nowhere. The current management are doing a lot of things right but haven't yet convinced me they're going to make us a lot more competitive when the rubber hits the road. I think it's crying out for Chalky to be moved back to CB to help shore up that area. I'm not sure we've a lot of alternatives.

I'm not too downhearted overall though. If we'd won yesterday we'd have got "it's only the league" etc so you have to take defeat the same way. Overall the season has started well considering the number of youngsters in the side, the injuries and yes, the transitional nature of the squad.

With three games to come at home I believe we can find two victories and hopefully that will be enough to stay in Division One, which is critical for this team in my view. Look how eager Donegal are to get back despite McGuinness's bullsh1t last year. Mayo spent years beavering away in Div One and it gradually built up their know how and confidence to be able to compete at the top (albeit not quite getting over the line yet).

Tough game to come against Tyrone but plenty to look forward to still this year.

Just curious as to how many of sundays team also played against Cork last year. I know we started to experiment with young players last year but we seem to have a lot more on board now and are missing two of the best from this time last year in Kelly and Dan Flynn.
There is no definite time limit on transition and it usually takes more than one year. We looked a tired team going nowhere in 2012 and its going to take time to recover to the levels of 10 and 11.
We will have to be patient and accept defeats like sunday as part of learning process.

From watching the highlights on tnag last night and the Mayo game what i notice a lot was lads not tracking there marker going through the middle, even if with a center back there other teams are overlapping by players not tracking and a lot of this happens by misplaced ball either by bad hand passing or bad kick passing. This has being a problem for Kildare for a number of years so unless we improve dramatically with the basics we will see this happening more.

Steviegenius this has being pointed out a lot over the last couple of years. The midfield and half forward line have to do their job on this. They need to be quick and they must not be lazy. Its too easy to say - ah I was making a run forward and the ball didn't come to me so I stop!!! Unless we put the proper players in these positions it will not matter who we put at 6.

Peter Harte is probablly a good example of the "New" modern Day Centre Back.. He can defend and attack.. However, as ballyboy eluded to, when He does venture Forward, there is always a Player to fill the CB slot, its never just left vacant...

shoutitout wrote:

Steviegenius this has being pointed out a lot over the last couple of years. The midfield and half forward line have to do their job on this. They need to be quick and they must not be lazy. Its too easy to say - ah I was making a run forward and the ball didn't come to me so I stop!!! Unless we put the proper players in these positions it will not matter who we put at 6.

Who are these proper players though? Many argue Chalky should be tried at CB but as part of the midfield who are deemed not to be tracking back is he going to be a solution at CB? I wasn't in Cork but Moolick and White both seemed to be getting through a huge amount of work in previous games with Moolick in particular going from being last man back when Mayo scored their second goal to being the man sending Flats in for his goal at the other end a few minutes later. Would Daryl be any better at shoring things up?or did you have other proper players in mind?

I don't think we need a traditional stopper type of centre back but whoever plays in that central position has to read the game exceptionally well. Look at how Kerry reinvented Michael McCarthy as a centre back a few years ago. He was a brilliant reader of the game and was able to anticipate danger almost before it even happened. Brennan has performed a very similar role for Dublin recently. I'm not sure if some of the players we have tried there have those skills in their locker. Morgan O'Flaherty did a very good job but he was left exposed in later years when we were beaten at midfield. That wasn't really a problem from 2009 to 2011.

Apart from Mick Foley, Eoin Doyle (and possibly Fitzpatrick?), do any other players on the Kildare panel actually line out in the no 6 shirt for their clubs? Gary White plays at midfield for Sarsfields, Bolton plays in the forwards for Eadestown and Fergal Conway was playing in the half forward line for Celbridge when I watched them last.

I'd go with Murnaghan centre back (plays there for Moorefield) with Bolton and Cribben on the wings. Flynn and Moolick or Hurley in Midfield with Chalky then centre forward. I think that would add alot more strenght to the centre of the team with Chalky and Murnaghan very fit and will work til the end of every match.
Flynn was transformed into a denfensive midfielder by McGeeney and has shown at times he is very good in that role.

Murno only played centre back twice for Moores this year in Leinster club and he is a far better wing player. I suppose given that nearly everyone of us is picking a different player centreback shows how much of a struggle it must be for the management!!

Think Doyle might be the best option at 6. He was looking good 2 years ago but seems to have been injured a lot since. He has strength and pace and doesn't try to get forward too often.
I actually think Bolton is the cause of a lot of the problems as he gets forward too much and is a poor tackler. I often think he might be better suited to a half forward role as he is fairly accurate in front of the posts and gets into good scoring positions. Not likely to happen though!

topcat wrote:

Murno only played centre back twice for Moores this year in Leinster club and he is a far better wing player. I suppose given that nearly everyone of us is picking a different player centreback shows how much of a struggle it must be for the management!!

I agree, 5 or 7 by far his best position.  

Could play 10 or 12 if needed but not as effective.

Crofter the players I would have there are Flynn and Chalky in midfield and Paudi and Cribben at 10 and 12. Moolick was off the pace in Cork and as the game quickens in the summer I am not sure he will be able to stay with his man. Like you I thought he had played well in the games before that and maybe the training is taking its toll but only time will tell. Hurley IMO has the best pair of hands in the county but does not do enough in general play for me. Yes he wins a couple of kick outs in a game but I think if the keeper kicked better ball out most players would win their share. He goes on a burst at times which is great but then for the next couple of minutes he is out of the game.
People say about wing backs in today's game running forward to help get scores but good teams also have wing forwards to run back to help defend. Flynn for Dublin never stops moving on the pitch. If Dublin have the ball he is running forward to create over laps but when they don't he is back defending.
I hate pointing out what I see as weaknesses in our players as I know what level of training they put into this but unless we find the players to compete man to man against the top teams or come up with a plan to stop them we will never beat them.
When Geezer used the 2-2-2 formation in the forward line it was no surprising we didn't give away as much. Having the 2 play close to the midfield helped shore up the defense and I never understood why we went away form this.
I believe we have a good team at the moment, not a great one, but with the correct game plan for the players we have I believe we can compete with the top teams.

There is no great shame in going to Cork and losing by a point. Kildare have a new management team who are still trying out new players and players in different positions. Give it a chance until things settle down and then we will see exactly where we are at. That may not be until the 1st round of the c/ship.
CDÁ

Just looking and thinking about what way managers operate and i am a bit surprised with Ryan at the moment i would have taught most people coming in would concentrate on conceding less and ensuring the nr 1-6 are the best available and try to get the defensive side right and then move on from there to me that is the beginning of 'transition' and then kick on from there.
To me we should be all on here talking about how they are concentrating on stopping the opposition primarily maybe the new rules have a part to play in that mindset??

I don't think there's a natural centre back up to the standards required at intercounty level. I think the best bet is to play maybe eoin doyle there and let him get on with his game. What I think should be done then is name a man in full forward line whose job it is to hover just behind the midfield area when the opposition is is building their attack. As soon as that midfield line is broken at pace, he has to close in on/track that man to give protection to the full back line. Going forward, he should act as a link between defence and attack. He would obviously need to have supreme pace, stamina to keep up and down the field and must also be comfortable on the ball. Would have seen Dan Flynn as the ideal man for it but maybe one of Cribbin/Hyland/Lyons would be good. Just a thought and its a bit different to just dropping a man back in front of the full back line.
On the Cork match, didn't hear a whole lot about it as I was working, but there would be very few teams in the country that fancy their chances going down there. Narrow defeat isn't the worst in the world and the lads have a few weeks now to regroup.

micky murphy wrote:

Just looking and thinking about what way managers operate and i am a bit surprised with Ryan at the moment i would have taught most people coming in would concentrate on conceding less and ensuring the nr 1-6 are the best available and try to get the defensive side right and then move on from there to me that is the beginning of 'transition' and then kick on from there.
To me we should be all on here talking about how they are concentrating on stopping the opposition primarily maybe the new rules have a part to play in that mindset??

We are playing with the best 1-6 available though. I've no doubt Peter Kelly, Morgan O'Flaherty, Johnny Byrne, Brian Flanagan and Ollie Lyons (not fully fit) would strengthen the back line but they're unavailable for various reasons. Bolton is not a good enough tackler for a centre back and his reading of the game can be poor at times. Lost count of the amount of times he was caught out of position against Mayo. Surely he can't be considered as a realistic option in that position long term.  

Still unconvinced by Fergal Conway.

Mick Foley is playing pretty poor by his usually high standards, I'd like to see him at centre back, but who do you replace him with at full back? You're just robbing Peter to pay Paul. The soft ground doesn't suit him at all.

Mick O'Grady needs to get out in front and win more primary possession. Seems to concede possession way too easily at times. Debut season for him so it's hard to be critical. He will improve no doubt.

Paul Cribbin should be in the half forward line unless we have a plan for someone to cover when he inevitably bombs forward, this has not happened so far.

Can't fathom why Donnellan started ahead of Connolly against Cork, the Larries man is clearly the better keeper, brainfart v Mayo notwithstanding.

Murnaghan has been a revelation.

Lots to work on for Ryan in the coming weeks. Our Forwards are doing well but our defensive set up needs addressing. Never thought as a Kildare man I'd be saying that.

If fully fit my centre half back would be Eoin Doyle he was good there in 2012 before getting injured. I think its more to do with players not tracking there men and being out of position for our soft centre. Atm cause Doyle is not fit I'd play Chalky and bring Daryl in. Hope to god we stay up in division 1 and we get our injuries right for the championship because I honestly believe this "transition" period is nonsense, If we have everyone fit and playing well we can match anyone!! Now not sure if that is blind faith but I don't think were that far away.

Tibi I dont think Johnny Byrne or Brian Flanagan would improve our defense, Johnny has hardly played a senior game and Flanno doesnt have the pace for the way the game has gone.

You would hope Ollie, Peter and Eoin would sure up the defense as your looking at our two main markers and our best option at centre back. When you look at it that way you would imagine what we are currently conceding would be reduced.

When Kelly is back i'd play him full back instead and maybe move Foley to centre back.

Ahlethimout wrote:

I don't think there's a natural centre back up to the standards required at intercounty level.  I think the best bet is to play maybe eoin doyle there and let him get on with his game.  What I think should be done then is name a man in full forward line whose job it is to hover just behind the midfield area when the opposition is is building their attack.  As soon as that midfield line is broken at pace, he has to close in on/track that man to give protection to the full back line.  Going forward, he should act as a link between defence and attack.  He would obviously need to have supreme pace, stamina to keep up and down the field and must also be comfortable on the ball.  Would have seen Dan Flynn as the ideal man for it but maybe one of Cribbin/Hyland/Lyons would be good.  Just a thought and its a bit different to just dropping a man back in front of the full back line.
On the Cork match, didn't hear a whole lot about it as I was working, but there would be very few teams in the country that fancy their chances going down there.  Narrow defeat isn't the worst in the world and the lads have a few weeks now to regroup.

Would think this approach is worth a try. Looking at Mayo last year Keith Higgins kinda filled that role. I would think that Lyons is probably most suited with his speed. His closing down of loose opposition might be just that bit quicker to Hyland or Cribbin as well as been able to start a counter attack at pace.

Looking at some of the tackling its a huge area to target for improvement. If you look at Dublin or Donegal then look at ours you'd have to say there's a serious difference and not one that can't be improved on drastically.
They both hit hard, within the rules and stop you in your tracks no matter where you are on the field Kildare over the last two to three years are tackling like it is just about the ball. You have to put pressure on or the better teams will just saunter their way up the pitch without fear of getting dispossesed.

We were stopping teams running at us in 09-11 and our tackling was much better. It started to go wrong in the 2nd half of 11 and has deteriorated steadily since leading to some heavy defeats.
I remember McGeeney saying in 09 that they put in a huge amount of time and effort in training on tackling.
So what has gone wrong since? If we could sort out that problem we have the potential to be a very good team but its disappointing that after changing the manager and bringing in a lot of new players we still have teams running through us at ease.
I have to say I'm not looking forward to the Dublin match at this stage.

Just a thought but Aidan O Rourke left the set up after 2011. Any player I have spoken to about his involvement spoke very highly of him particularly his defensive work. This maybe a contributory factor to our regression in our defensive capabilities.

I don't see why it would be so difficult to use the Donegal Dublin method it's a bit like the Kilkenny half foul it's barely legal but just enough that the ref doesn't blow and the player is stopped. You have to be aggressive and hit hard without pulling or dragging. Even their small players seem to be better at stopping runners than our bigger lads.

The new advantage rull will make those half fouls not as good an idea anymore, whereas previously the ref couldn't bring the play back after such a foul, he is now able to do so, so trying those half fouls which have been a great way of stopping momentum up to now may now be obsolete.

Westside wrote:

Tibi I dont think Johnny Byrne or Brian Flanagan would improve our defense, Johnny has hardly played a senior game and Flanno doesnt have the pace for the way the game has gone.

You would hope Ollie, Peter and Eoin would sure up the defense as your looking at our two main markers and our best option at centre back. When you look at it that way you would imagine what we are currently conceding would be reduced.

When Kelly is back i'd play him full back instead and maybe move Foley to centre back.

Byrne was outstanding for the U21s last year IMO. He's big, strong and is no slouch.

Forget to mention Doyle. It will take him a while get back into the swing of things, so maybe he won't be an option this year.

Brian Flanagan was outstanding early last year before that devastating injury. He was centre back in his first year with Kildare and was very good until he was pushed out to the wing for some reason.

Morgan O'Flaherty's absence has been hugely under stated, probably the best reader of a game we've had in recent years. However, his small stature lets him down on occasion.

TC when I say half foul I don't mean a thug or pullback where you let the player off what I mean is when he gets the ball you follow through with a good hard slap with an open hand or forearm, without enough to trip or push over keeping your body in direct line so as you can't be passed. For example if you are not first to the ball if you let the attacker turn without laying a hand on him then you are going to be in trouble, what you see from the dubs is when they know they won't win the ball they will follow through to push you away from goal disrupt your balance and then apply more slaps at the ball or the arms or whatever leaving the forwards less time to think and no easy turn. They don't care if it's a clean tackle and more often than not the ref dos'nt give a foul coz it's not really a pull just a lot of pressure that won't cause a player to go down. Kilkennys half fouls were actual fouls in truth.