Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final

Well Lads and Lassies, think we've talked the legs off the Laoise game. Huge step up in class for our next game in terms of opposition. Dublin are red hot favourites and rightly so, but have they any weakness in their team and if so how do we exploit it or are we capable of exploiting it......

I've no bother with criticism of players. Some of what was said about Callaghan (more so on Facebook than here) went well beyond that.

I think they have defensive weakness - but I don't think Kildare have enough to exploit it without being milled at the other end. That's the dilemma when you play Dublin.

Yep - Donegal solved the Rubik's cube last year, but that was a system they'd been fine-tuning for four years. Kildare have a fortnight, and obviously that's not going to happen. So, it will be a defeat I'm afraid.

But naturally I do hope we put in the proverbial "big performance" (and all the other cliches).

Great to be here after a good win, so let's say that before it gets ugly. Obviously we need a system to save us from a hiding and if that results in a crap game we lose by eight or nine, so be it. But there's no system that can get us closer because mark one player with three, another will have just one on him and man for man they are better everywhere and they've the speed to go around us, power to go through us, and movement and kick-passing ability to open us. As I always say with Dublin though, and even with our midfield, no matter how deep we decide to sit I think it's vital to push up on Cluxton's kick-outs and make sure we alert after a score or a wide so he can't get a quick one off to an open man. Also vital we don't run into the tackle and turn over the ball and don't kick pass away as we'll be opened up if we do and we cannot concede a lot of goals if we're to keep it respectable. Finally, no stupid frees, whatever about hauling lads down to save goals or fouling out the field to slow it, no off-the-ball stuff from full-back and half-back lines.

That's a lot to get right there and can't see it. Lyons might take Brogan but that leaves us in trouble across rest of full-back line. Our half-backs will be tormented and overrun. Our midfield isn't at their standard. Our half-forwards will be on the back foot and defending more than anything. And our full-forwards may not see a lot of ball. Sorry if that sounds bad, but just the way I see it. Think we could be in for 20 point beating here.

Would pretty much agree with all that Tommy. But you know, I do believe that the way Donegal play is not something that Kildare couldn't realistically aspire to - I do think there is a lot of quality in Kildare and with the right approach we can compete with Dublin. I've elaborated on this more in the Kildare-Laois thread.

But our form and tactics have been too wildly erratic this year, and the management team are now scrambling around trying to piece together a coherent system in two weeks. There has been very little conviction in their approach this season – and if there is one team in the country with whom you need to have 100% belief in your gameplan, it's Dublin.

Bearing all that in mind, a car crash is a live possibility here – a 20-point plus defeat is definitely plausible. Hope it doesn't happen obviously, but I wouldn't exactly be shocked.

Derry did a good job on them in the league. If we got within 6 would classify as a good day out. I personally am going to go enjoy the day and atmosphere. I think we've turned a corner but it's a long road ahead. I never in my 35+ years following them have I gone to a match expect nothing yet looking forward to it.

You never know . As long as we don't get a hiding it's a win win for us.

Go along with all that. With teams of that ilk, it's the turnovers that kill you. In 2013, Kildare had oceans of possession and should have lost by 25. I think it was 16? The amount of ball they gave away was chronic. But it was punished doubly because Geezer set up in orthodox fashion.

Dublin won't be anything like the threat the Laois boys were in the air - they don't play that game. But as Tommy says, it's the kickouts to Flynn... teams that push up on those give Dublin problems as Cluxton doesn't want to go long. By pushing up of course, you're leaving some space behind.

Basically, massive, massive fitness!

I'd take 10 right now and run.

I just went back to have a look at Dublin's league results this year, The league final result beating Cork by 11 points, The round 7 result beating Monaghan by 11 points and the round 5 result beating Mayo away by 14 points are the most daunting results. The 1 09 to 0 12 draw with Tyrone, The 0 08 to 0 04 game against Derry and the 1 point win v Monaghan in the s/f give some degree of comfort that an annihilation is not a foregone conclusion, albeit a possibility.

There is nothing new here but I think these results do illustrate that Dublin can rack up big wins against even the top teams, but also that getting your setup right against them can result in making a game of it, look at the Monaghan game in round 7 and the semi final one week later for example.

Cork 1 15 Dub 0 16
Dub 2 10 Donegal 0 11
Kerry 0 15 Dub 1 10
Dub 1 09 Tyrone 0 12
Mayo 0 10 Dub 2 18
Dub 0 08 Derry 0 04
Mon 1 11 Dub 1 22
s/f Dub 0 17 Mon 0 16
F Dub 1 21 Cork 2 07

"The Supporter" - whose columns in The Nationalist are so edgy he has to write them anonymously - is dreadful at the best of times, but I have to share this gem from the latest issue:

"For quite a few Lilies, if Kildare did nothing else but beat Laois every year in the championship, it would satisfy them. They might not even need to look at another game."

I have read other Supporter columns where the mysterious columnist has - without irony - pondered why Kildare are such chronic underachievers.

All those results are against good Div 1 teams who all won their first championship match bar Tyrone who happened to play another Div 1 team so not entirely relevant to us. Dublin do seem to have adapted their style slightly this year, the centre back is very much holding his position and not getting dragged up the field so their full back line does have more protection.

If we are going to park the bus, it has to be done in a very disciplined way, the smallest total a Dublin team has racked up in championship under Gavin is 17 points in last year's loss to Donegal.

If we park the bus are we likely to score 18 points? I doubt it, baring in mind Donegal are a much better defensive team than we are currently, can we hope to restrict them to less than 17. The key to that will be stopping the concession of goals, again only once has a Dublin team failed to find the net in a championship game since Gavin took over, last year to Donegal.

While parking the bus is the obvious tactic, parking it poorly would lead to an unmerciful hiding, see Monaghan in last year's quarter final.

So to sum it up, we need to push up on their kick outs forcing them to go long then get enough bodies back behind the ball if they win it and all the while taking all the chances that come our way. Easy peasy

If everyone is fit on the day and we get a break or two we'll beat the 11 point spread and could give them a bit to think about

whatever we do here we're going to be beaten.

Question is do we want to attempt to go to to toe with the most fittest , best prepared (both on and off the field), who have several times the spending power in terms of team preparation of the rest of the leinster teams combined - or do we want to get men behind the ball hit them hard and make them work for everything they get?

I'm sorry folks but if Ryan opts to take Dublin on head on he's far far more stupid than I ever imagined.

I dont know about other posters but i think we match up well in the backs and wouldnt say they are faster stronger and fitter. Fitz on McManamon, lyons on Brogan, O'Grady on Rock, Eoin Doyle on Connolly, Conway on Kilkenny and Bolton on Flynn. Mind you i dont think this is the way its going to play out.

topcat wrote:

All those results are against good Div 1 teams who all won their first championship match bar Tyrone who happened to play another Div 1 team so not entirely relevant to us. Dublin do seem to have adapted their style slightly this year, the centre back is very much holding his position and not getting dragged up the field so their full back line does have more protection.

If we are going to park the bus, it has to be done in a very disciplined way, the smallest total a Dublin team has racked up in championship under Gavin is 17 points in last year's loss to Donegal.

If we park the bus are we likely to score 18 points? I doubt it, baring in mind Donegal are a much better defensive team than we are currently, can we hope to restrict them to less than 17. The key to that will be stopping the concession of goals, again only once has a Dublin team failed to find the net in a championship game since Gavin took over, last year to Donegal.

While parking the bus is the obvious tactic, parking it poorly would lead to an unmerciful hiding, see Monaghan in last year's quarter final.

I'm not talking about parking the bus to win the game. I'm talking about parking the bus to avoid a 20-point beating. But you are right, if you're loose and undisciplined, you're dead, either way. Think Dublin would have scored a hat of goals against Kildare last week for example.

Happy for Mick O'Grady but couldn't believe the GAA nomination for him as performance of the week. Now he had a very tough task but Donie Kingston won the first four balls definitely. Ollie Lyons was head and shoulders a better operator. But I know how these things work, you have to have a spread and you're not at the games etc.

But if Dublin were getting that sort of supply you'd be destroyed.

Freddy Krueger wrote:

whatever we do here we're going to be beaten.

Question is do we want to attempt to go to to toe with the most fittest , best prepared (both on and off the field), who have several times the spending power in terms of team preparation of the rest of the leinster teams combined -  or do we want to get men behind the ball hit them hard and make them work for everything they get?

I'm sorry folks but if Ryan opts to take Dublin on head on he's far far more stupid than I ever imagined.

I don't always agree with Freddie but on this occasion I absolutely agree - I'd love to see us adopt a Meath-like mentality from the '80s or Donegal from present day and choke the living day lights out of the cocky bastards. Thirteen behind the ball with someone like Smith or Kelly doing the "McFadden" role. Keep them to less than 0-15 and score as much as we can. Realistically probably no more than 0-6 or 0-7. But put it up to them. Easier said than done of course. Would load up the team with midfielders and defenders.

Team

Donnellan
Fitzy
O'Grady
Lyons
Hyland
Doyle
Murnaghan
Conway
Bolton
White
Moolick
Cribbin
McNally
O'Neill
Kelly

Westside wrote:

I dont know about other posters but i think we match up well in the backs and wouldnt say they are faster stronger and fitter. Fitz on McManamon, lyons on Brogan, O'Grady on Rock, Eoin Doyle on Connolly, Conway on Kilkenny and Bolton on Flynn. Mind you i dont think this is the way its going to play out.

I think you're living in a dreamland honestly Westside but I admire your optimism. On 9 days out of 10 those six Dublin forwards would absolutely roast their 6 markers. Bolton on Flynn? Even in his youth I'm not sure Emmet would have had the speed and fitness to mark Flynn. We need to load the team with defenders and double up across the back line. Only way to have a chance of respectability.

Anyone else a little worried that Ryan seems to have no idea where the good second half came from. In both local papers he mentions numerous times that he didn't know where the performance came from. At one point he syas it was down to the players knowing what they had to change and sorting it out amongest themselves.
I had to read it a couple of times and I still can't believe he basically said the performance was not down to him.

As for the Dublin game, its a shot to nothing. No one gives us a chance not even ourselves. What we should try and do at all costs is take Dublin out of their comfort zone. Make it a war. Their egos might just get the better of them and make them take the collective eye off the ball just enough to keep us in it.
I don't care how we do it, but we need to find a nasty streak. One in all in style row, get them to think about retribution instead of football. Anything to level the playing field.

I'll probably be proven totally wrong but I do give us a chance. It'll require a miracle but miracles happen so I'll travel in hope - not expectation but definitely hope!

Rex wrote:

Anyone else a little worried that Ryan seems to have no idea where the good second half came from. In both local papers he mentions numerous times that he didn't know where the performance came from. At one point he syas it was down to the players knowing what they had to change and sorting it out amongest themselves.
I had to read it a couple of times and I still can't believe he basically said the performance was not down to him.

As for the Dublin game, its a shot to nothing. No one gives us a chance not even ourselves. What we should try and do at all costs is take Dublin out of their comfort zone. Make it a war. Their egos might just get the better of them and make them take the collective eye off the ball just enough to keep us in it.
I don't care how we do it, but we need to find a nasty streak. One in all in style row, get them to think about retribution instead of football. Anything to level the playing field.

He really instills no confidence whatsoever!

Think for the Dubs something drastic is in order. Ala Donegal in 11. I'd have Eoin Doyle starting for Fogarty. Leave Smith Leper inside. Have Doyle Paidi Fla and Cotzy playing between our half back line and full back lines. Chalky on the D. Work and tackle like dogs and then hope Cribben Fla Lyons or whoever can get up the field quick with the ball when we turn it over. Empty the tanks and have Moolick Kelly Hylo and these lads to come in on 40 minutes to continue it!
Every dog has its day so with unrelenting work and discipline who knows where it will lead!

Westside wrote:

I dont know about other posters but i think we match up well in the backs and wouldnt say they are faster stronger and fitter. Fitz on McManamon, lyons on Brogan, O'Grady on Rock, Eoin Doyle on Connolly, Conway on Kilkenny and Bolton on Flynn. Mind you i dont think this is the way its going to play out.

They are stronger faster and fitter. Far better prepared and conditioned. You cannot blame anyone in Kildare for this, we simply don't have their spending power.

Our backs aren't our problem. It's the system we play and a lack of a strong midfield partnership.

tomoneillandhissisteranne wrote:

I'll probably be proven totally wrong but I do give us a chance. It'll require a miracle but miracles happen so I'll travel in hope - not expectation but definitely hope!

Once you're there, there's always hope. Beating Laois was a must for the team for many reasons.

I'll travel as usual in hope also, in the hope we put in a good performance and limit our beating. Regarding a win, we have no hope

Maybe it's a positive thing if the players took control themselves and not relied on a manager who clearly is not capable of learning from mistakes.
Agree on the need to adopt a harder and meaner attitude like Meath used so successfully for many years. Prefer to lose by 10 points and have them hate us than 20 and have to listen to condescending nonsense about how we put it up to them.

Moolick has to start in my eyes for this one..No disrespect to Chalky but he simply doesnt have the physicality or pace to keep up with Dublin IMO.. Moolick has to start in midfield, I think this game will suit him.