Kildare V Dublin, Leinster S/Final

Think this might get at what people are saying...

I've been watching football since 1990. I was present for the Dublin-Meath saga in 91, saw Kildare beat Dublin in 98 and 2000, have seen Donegal a couple of times under McGuinness.

When all those teams - Meath, Kildare, Donegal - took on Dublin, you always got the sense that this was a group of players who relished the challenge, and if anything the Dubs were a little intimidated by them (at this stage, must be hard for younger fans to believe that a Dublin senior team were ever intimidated by Kildare, but there you go).

Watching the players warm up from the Davin end on Sunday - and I genuinely felt this at the time - to me they looked like a team who were going through the motions and fulfilling a fixture. The body language, the intensity, the way they were communicating with each other... none of it said to me, this is a team who can't wait to get stuck into this.

I don't think they really, genuinely believed in the game plan, and as a result it's no surprise to me that they turned in such a perfunctory performance. It's difficult enough trying to beat Dublin when you have a tried and trusted tactical approach, but if you are winging it some extent, forget about it. Have to say, though, I wouldn't call the players spineless or question their character. They weren't properly set up to make it a contest and they were simply blown away by a brilliant team.

Another really interesting article by Jim McGuinness in The Irish Times today, which perhaps puts things into a bit more perspective. He felt Sunday was an important day in the development of Gaelic football, and that the pace with which Dublin attack - the speed of their passing and the movement of the forwards – is probably unprecedented in the game.

Thinks they'll be much more defensively savvy against the top teams this year and that the approach Donegal took last year wouldn't work again. Looking ahead to the rest of the championship, said he fears for Donegal and all other counties. His conclusion was that, if Dublin maintain their current form, he's honestly not sure if it's possible to devise a system to beat them.

This is the leading tactical thinker in the game - on Sunday we had a decent team, no more, being managed by a guy who, though a genuinely well-intentioned and honourable fella, is a managerial journeyman.

That gives some indication of the scale of the challenge the players faced. Still feel Dublin will face huge questions when they meet Donegal, Mayo or Kerry, but I think we saw the All Ireland champions on Sunday.

fone wrote:

heard  bolton played with broken rib

Not a hope, no physical trainer or doctor would allow a player to play with such a restrictive injury never mind such a painful one
But say they did, then they should be dispensed with at once. Player welfare comes before any game.

Don't let the facts enter into it Fone. The boys are upset with the result and because of that, the players must be cowards.

Are you suggesting that Emmet Bolton played Intercounty football with a broken rib.

I can hear the grasping of straws from here.

I've known several players to play with cracked rib/ribs. Highly unlikely he played with a broken one for obvious reason regarding his lung.
But who knows. It's possible he told no one until after the game if so.

And regarding player welfare. You're a lucky person if you're not going into a big game not carry some kind of knock.

Bad News Baba wrote:

Are you suggesting that Emmet Bolton played Intercounty football with a broken rib.

I can hear the grasping of straws from here.

i put notting pass jason ryan

Whether he did or not, I know a Kildare player who might not be able to walk by his mid 30s, but he plays on. I know Kildare players who've stalled their careers to try to overcome injuries. But three or four rabid fans have decided they are cowards. So be it.

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Whether he did or not, I know a Kildare player who might not be able to walk by his mid 30s, but he plays on. I know Kildare players who've stalled their careers to try to overcome injuries. But three or four rabid fans have decided they are cowards. So be it.

I presume that I'm one of these rabid fans you are referring to for calling it as I saw it on Sunday. Just for clarity I never called them spineless or cowards but my view remains, the towel was thrown in by many on Sunday prior to throw in. Nothing will change my view on that

I'm a bit worried that a lot of the players are soft not cowards or spineless just soft.. We didn't laid a hand on the Dublin playe for most of the game and even when it comes to injuries like look at glen for example I'd say ever time he played he was injuried but played like a lion. Look at the treatment JD got over the years and yet he nevered missed a game in 15 years. I heard john Crofton saying before that JD refused to be injured. Just an observation.

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Whether he did or not, I know a Kildare player who might not be able to walk by his mid 30s, but he plays on. I know Kildare players who've stalled their careers to try to overcome injuries. But three or four rabid fans have decided they are cowards. So be it.

Do you believe the players gave everything on Sunday, left it all out there, that they can look at themselves and be happy with how they performed?
Were you happy with the level of effort put in, happy to go home in the knowledge that each player in white gave what the jersey demands?
Is the level of effort on Sunday your standard for what a player should be putting in?

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

So were Monaghan spineless against them last year?

I don't care about Monaghan. I was watching Kildare men.

fone wrote:

heard  bolton played with broken rib

If so it certainly showed.. Why the fluck would we send out someone in that condition? Madness...

Ok so maybe 48 hours later I could re-phrase my "spineless" post. I have no doubt Kildare players train hard and give up huge amounts of their time to the game. I am sure they are generally of good character and we always have to remember it's an amateur game. But I'm not going to ignore the evidence of my own eyes. Our team took the easy option on Sunday and wimped out of going head for head with Dublin. I am lucky enough to be able to compare that shambles with the commitment and manliness of the likes of Glen Ryan, Davy Dalton, Paddy O' Donoghue, Johnny Doyle, Willie McCreery, Dermot Earley, Niall Buckley. I can only assume the apologists on here do not have similar points of reference.

Baba I don't think they are as fast, strong, skilful, well-prepared or well-organised as their opponents. Even allowing for that, I don't think deep down they believed they could win. I think they performed below par because of all of the above.

There is a big difference between all of that and being 'spineless'. That word means the same as yellow or cowardly. It isn't a fair description of our players.

Saw all of those players bar O'Donoghue Crofter. Most of them suffered bad defeats to Dublin at one stage or another.

That's not really answering the question though. I'm just curious as to know if you were happy with the effort the players put in and would accept that level every week.

Don't think effort was the big problem Baba. If you're not as fast, strong or fit as your opponents you can try your arse off and still get embarrassed.

I did think a couple of our lads looked bollicksed tired even in the first half.

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Saw all of those players bar O'Donoghue Crofter. Most of them suffered bad defeats to Dublin at one stage or another.

Sunday was our worst result (against anyone perhaps, but certainly against Dublin) since 1897 (or do you disagree?) so there's bad and then there's shambolic. In terms of Championship since I started going in 1978 the only two I can think of that come close to the utter humiliation of Sunday were 1978 and 2013. I'm not going to harp on it any more, the game is over and the players hopefully will realise their mental and physical approach was all wrong on Sunday and we will see a reaction on Saturday.

Matter of opinion I know but I think the 21-9 loss to Laois in 05 was worse. Like this might be the best Dublin team ever whereas Laois didn't even win Leinster that year. Few boys off your list were playing - for example, Dermot was cleaned. I'd also say Dublin 2013 was the same as Sunday. Doyle was playing. I worship the man but he was chasing shadows that day like everyone else.
Were Dermot Earley and John Doyle spineless?

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Matter of opinion I know but I think the 21-9 loss to Laois in 05 was worse. Like this might be the best Dublin team ever whereas Laois didn't even win Leinster that year. Few boys off your list were playing - for example, Dermot was cleaned. I'd also say Dublin 2013 was the same as Sunday. Doyle was playing. I worship the man but he was chasing shadows that day like everyone else.
Were Dermot Earley and John Doyle spineless?

Spot on.

It is uncanny the number of spineless, cowardly, 'worst ever' performances Kildare have produced since this forum started.

Do you think if those two teams met again that Kildare would lose by 11 points. Not a hope. Because the players you mentioned would have too much pride in themselves to allow it to happen. they may have got beat but by god they would go down fighting.

Everyone takes a beating, that's no the issue or the problem. If this Kildare team played Dublin again in two weeks the outcome would be the same and would be the same if they played in two weeks after that. They are mentally weak, have no leaders and no direction. That's the point.

To be beaten before you even leave the dressing room, I'd say before they even got out of the bed that morning is the spineless reference I think Crofter is referring to, not some measure of their manliness.

Jaysus Baba they lost to Sligo the next day in 05.

Look I just think it's too easy when you have a terrible loss to say it's because the players are spineless as if just convincing yourself you'll win is all it takes.

There's a lot more going on in one of these games. Read Jim McGuinness' article on the match for example.

Ogie wrote:

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Matter of opinion I know but I think the 21-9 loss to Laois in 05 was worse. Like this might be the best Dublin team ever whereas Laois didn't even win Leinster that year. Few boys off your list were playing - for example, Dermot was cleaned. I'd also say Dublin 2013 was the same as Sunday. Doyle was playing. I worship the man but he was chasing shadows that day like everyone else.
Were Dermot Earley and John Doyle spineless?

Spot on.

It is uncanny the number of spineless, cowardly, 'worst ever' performances Kildare have produced since this forum started.

I'm with you on this one Ogie...well said.

It's also uncanny the number of spineless, cowardly "keyboard warriors" as Bryan Murphy described them on this website, alot of whom have aching limbs from jumping on and off the bandwagon, the same lot who aren't fit to lace their boots for junior 'D' club football never mind senior inter-county, yet feel they are in a position to question and judge those who are. Sad really.

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Jaysus Baba they lost to Sligo the next day in 05.

Look I just think it's too easy when you have a terrible loss to say it's because the players are spineless as if just convincing yourself you'll win is all it takes.

There's a lot more going on in one of these games. Read Jim McGuinness' article on the match for example.

Hold on, that's not what I said. I asked if they played Laois again would they have lost by 11 points. My opinion is that they would not because they would have too much pride. I never asked about the next match to a different team.

I'll try and explain it clearer, the Kildare players on Sunday have been beat badly by Dublin in '13, in the League in '14 and again even worse on Sunday. We won't go into the capitulation against Meath last year. They should have been wanting to put the record straight and say we are not that bad, and put in a performance the score withstanding that showed Kildare people that they would give it all for the White jersey. What transpired was that they were beat before they came out of the dressing room. To do that against the same team three times is in a row is beyond belief.

No one would criticise the players if they saw that they gave all they had, but that was plainly not the case. It's this that has annoyed people.

Can we not just accept that this Dublin team is a superbly managed and resourced outfit with very skillful and athletic players. We are not in their league at the moment with the loss of so many top players for various reasons.
We need to be realistic about how we compare ourselves to the top teams. We would be far better off trying to get back to be the 2nd best team in Leinster and gettting out of Div 3. That is a lot more achievable than thinking we can compete with Dublin.
I dont think the players were spineless on sunday and the one criticism of them I would have was the 1-5 they left behind in the first half. That was really frustrating and so typical of Kildare teams down the years.
Had we scored that it would have left a margin of defeat of 11. Until we get a few players back and a new management set up thats as near as we will ever get to them.