Dublin v Kildare

If we take it as a given that we beat Westmeath, I think we will, we need a win over either Kerry in Newbridge or Derry away. The way Kerry played today it is unlikely we will beat them as their inside forwards particularly o Donoghue will score at will against us!

Walter White wrote:

kickingking wrote:

Baba O' Reily wrote:

We are not roughly in the same place, we are far worse off. Results wise, defensively wise and league position wise. Not to mention the U21's. To say otherwise is naive.

That is not the case:

2013
Dublin 2-20 Kildare 2-7
Kildare 0-10 Tyrone 1-13
Cork 1-9 Kildare 2-10
Mayo 0-13 Kildare 1-11

2014
Dublin 1-22 Kildare 1-12
Kildare 1-21 Tyrone 3-16
Cork 0-16 Kildare 1-12
Kildare 2-19 Mayo 2-18

Unsure of what point you are trying to make kickingking but by my calculations without consulting Ohtoohtobe's niece it amounts to 2 wins and 4 points out of 4 in 2013 to 1 win and 2 points out of 4 in 2014.

Defensively from those 4 games we've conceded 6-72 so far in 2014.
4-55 from the same set of games in 2013.

It's irrelevant what we've scored in either year what matters is if we've scored more than the opposition and we've failed to do that 3 out of 4 times so far.

So we're worse off whatever way you look at it.

To say we are far worse off is totally inaccurate if you look at the results against those four teams. That is the point I have made.

It's all semantics. We'll know if we're worse or better at the end of the league. Right now the odds are on us being worse. We've half a new team out with a new management. Senior players are either injured, unavailable or playing shite. We've young lads trying to lead the team to compensate. We can only speculate on how we'd have been doing under McGeeney. Much as I liked the man and thought he should stay, it isn't beyond the realms of possibility we'd have lost games to Cork and Tyrone (we did it often enough under him) and been beaten out the gate by Dublin. I suspect we wouldn't have seen Mullally and Moolick given opportunities to progress their careers or Fogarty. Balls would have reigned in on top of Tomas rather than out in front for him to gather. Whether our defence would have done better is also open to speculation. He hadn't got them doing particularly well BEFORE the black card rule which seems to be changing the face of the game. We've a huge game now against a Kerry side whose dander will be up. Backs are to the wall. Good luck to the young lads and let's hope some of the older gang can get their games together to support them.

We are not in the same planet of two of Kildare's finest hours, Dublin last year and Wicklow, the two times I walked out of Croke Park wishing I had a shovel.

Jason Ryan is doing an ok job, its only the league ffs, does anyone really give a sh!t about the league, honestly???

Who are half of these new players you are talking about Crofter?

Connolly
Hugh McGrillen
Foley
K Cribben
P Cribben
Moolick
Chalky
McNally
Flaherty
Hurley
O'Connor
Brophy

All these featured under McGeeney. Mulhall, O'Grady and Murnaghan are the 3 new faces.
It's also funny you mention Fogarty as he was one of 3 lads, Fionn Dowling and Paddy Brophy who embarrassed us (Taibi's words not mine ) against Galway in the u21's last year shooting from until angles . Fogarty also featured under McGeeney 2 years ago in a League final against Tyrone by the way.

In actual fact McGeeney introduced far more new comers last year than Ryan has this year. Niall Kelly, Paddy Brophy, Dan Flynn, Cathal McNally, Sean Hurley, David Hyland all bloode last year by McGeeney.
Still managed to reach the league semi final.

And by the way Jason Ryan has far more managerial experience than Kieran McGeeney.

Not sure that the experience relating to Ryan and mcGeeney is true Walter White, did both not start their respective inter county management careers in 2008, if I am wrong I apologise and I am very much open to correction on it but I believe Ryan started with Wexford in 08 same as McGeeney did with us?

Look at our championship team from last year under McGeeney, Walter.

Aside from the 3 you mentioned, Keith Cribben hasn't started a senior game for a number of years, Moolick and Fogarty left the panel after a lack of opportunity, Chalky was away with the army, McNally was peripheral in the championship. Fergal Conway was only a panellist with virtually no game time.

The likes of Paul Cribben, Hurley are hardly seasoned veterans either.

If it was all McGeeney's team I presume we wouldn't be in the bottom two to follow your normal way of thinking.

I didn't say Ryan was less experienced than McGeeney - I meant he was a new manager for Kildare. Presume you might accept that point.

I am on the record as saying McGeeney did well in a transition year last year and should have been kept. I just don't see why everything has to come back to last Autumn.

Could it be - management aside - that we have absolutely poor back lines that need replacing (if there are replacements)?

topcat wrote:

Not sure that the experience relating to Ryan and mcGeeney is true Walter White, did both not start their respective inter county management careers in 2008, if I am wrong I apologise and I am very much open to correction on it but I believe Ryan started with Wexford in 08 same as McGeeney did with us?

McGeeney had no previous management experience before joining Kildare. Ryan did join Wexford in 2007 for the 2008 season but had previous club management experience with De La Salle in Waterford and Clongeen in Wexford where he won a county title. So he had more management experience and obviously he joins Kildare this year with 5 seasons of intercounty management behind him with Wexford and a season with Kildare last year.

He's not a green horn. And shouldn't be treated as such.

Incidentally Would anyone have any criticism of his reign so far ? One thing I would expect is some changes for the Kerry game. We've lost 3 on the bounce now?!

tomoneillandhissisteranne wrote:

Could it be - management aside - that we have absolutely poor back lines that need replacing (if there are replacements)?

It's far too simplistic to blame it solely on the backs. The dubs broke from their own half backline and were afforded the time and space to deliver quality ball to a quality forward line.

A root and branch review is needed.

I would criticise the fact that we haven't tried to play a sweeper in any game this year, this despite the fact we have been coughing up a crazy amount of goal chance in each game we have played. We know now our backs aren't good enough to beat opposition forward man on man so either change personnel and give others a go or we go defensive in a bid to stop the rate at which we are conceding.

I thought going on form that this would be a close game but then I looked at the first fifteen's of both teams and saw that ours was completely inferior.

There aren't many debutants in the team this year but I would say the lads who have been around for a long time do not have a history of achievement at the highest level which is at odds with the Dublin team. Lads like Gary White, Hugh Mcgrillen, Eoghan o'Flaherty, Mick Foley & O'connor may be thought of highly on these forums but on a national level very few of these lads have one all star nomination never mind multiple ones like the Dublin, Mayo & Cork established players do.

Blaming Jason Ryan for this is silly. We are getting the results our player pick deserves. We have good players like Brophy and Hurley but they are very young to be expecting consisent excellence from this year. Look at Mannion, Kilkenny & Mccaffrey for the Dubs last year. One game they'd be great the next game not so much. You only get consistency with age unless you're a ridiculous talent.

Until we get our classier players like Peter Kelly, Ollie Lyons, Leper, Eoin Doyle back we will struggle. No Manager would do any better.

Walter White wrote:

tomoneillandhissisteranne wrote:

Could it be - management aside - that we have absolutely poor back lines that need replacing (if there are replacements)?

It's far too simplistic to blame it solely on the backs. The dubs broke from their own half backline and were afforded the time and space to deliver quality ball to a quality forward line.

A root and branch review is needed.

I take your point, Walter, but that seems to be a particularly serious area.

Walter White wrote:

topcat wrote:

Not sure that the experience relating to Ryan and mcGeeney is true Walter White, did both not start their respective inter county management careers in 2008, if I am wrong I apologise and I am very much open to correction on it but I believe Ryan started with Wexford in 08 same as McGeeney did with us?

McGeeney had no previous management experience before joining Kildare. Ryan did join Wexford in 2007 for the 2008 season but had previous club management experience with De La Salle in Waterford and Clongeen in Wexford where he won a county title. So he had more management experience and obviously he joins Kildare this year with 5 seasons of intercounty management behind him with Wexford and a season with Kildare last year.

He's not a green horn. And shouldn't be treated as such.

Incidentally Would anyone have any criticism of his reign so far ? One thing I would expect is some changes for the Kerry game. We've lost 3 on the bounce now?!

Those of us with some balance probably do have criticism of his reign so far (as its not always conveniently black and white). For me I would have liked us to concentrate more on our defensive game and in particular to strengthen the spine of the defence. I'd have played Chalky centre back in recent games and asked him to hold the position. I'm also disappointed he hasn't addressed the Mick Foley issue. He has not been at the races all season. I think we are really short in that position though to offer some defence for Ryan. Campbell looks a long shot as a solution so we may need to wait for Peter Kelly's return (although I have thrown out Dan Flynn as a left-field suggestion). Against Tyrone I thought the substitutions a bit strange, particularly Gately for White with five minutes left and Dowling for Mulhall two minutes later. We also still have problems with our kick outs and seemed to think that a one-dimensional ploy of dropping ball on top of Hurley would suffice against the Dubs.

Incidentially Walter would you have any criticism of the previous regime ?

Walter, perhaps you could suggest what you would do differently this week end in terms of team selection and the three changes you would look for? I'd line us up as follows (assuming none of the injured lads are back available)

Connolly

O'Grady
Dan Flynn
Hyland

Murnaghan
White
P.Cribben

Moolick
Hurley

McNally
O'Flaherty
O'Neill

Mulhall
Fogarty
Brophy

Does anyone know what's the story with dayrl flynn is he not fit or just off form?
Is johnny Doyle nearly ready or is he a real option?

Would Daniel Flynn be worth a go at 6?

heard flynn fit sence cork match
johnny could back next week has play for allenwood

kerry    a must win  game

derry     will hard to get 2 points in derry , they only lost  to cork by point another big strong team

westmeath  a certain 2 points westmeath will  back in division 2 next week sunday evening

Just watched the highlights on League Sunday. Once again we could not live with the pace of Dublin and their young players fit in so easily to that system. I was delighted that we created so many goal chances which we didn't do last year against Dublin but that's 3 times that McNally has been one on one with a goalie in the last 2 games and failed to find the net.
What would you do differently Walter and what might McGeeney do differently? Our problems in defence and our lack of experienced players fit to come in makes simply dropping McGrillen and Foley a non runner.
What exactly is a root and branch review and how would it work in the short term?
And finally would you admit you were wrong about Mulhall?

My team for the weekend would be

1. Connolly
2. O Grady
3. Campbell
4. Hylo
5. Murno
6. Chalky (if fit)
7. Paul Cribben
8. Moolick
9. Hurley
10. McNally
11. Flats
12. Dan Flynn
13. Brophy
14. Tomas
15. Mullhall

On Flynner he is injured at the minute I believe.

I am not sure if Dan Flynn has done much with the senior yet, if it is deemed he hasn't done enough to warrant a start. I would probably go with Keith Cribben wing forward.

Hmm the way I see it panning out...... W'Meath 0 points, can't see them winning anything Kerry 4 points with wins over Tyrone (H) & W'Meath (A) losses to Kildare (A) & Cork (H) Derry 5 points loosing remaining matches to Cork (A), Dublin (H), Kildare (A) & Mayo (A) Mayo 6 points with wins over W'Meath (A) & Derry (A), loosing to Cork (H) & Dublin (A) Kildare 8 points with wins over W'Meath (H), Kerry (H) & Derry (A) loosing to Dublin (A) wrote:

Hmm still don't see that changing

Even as someone who was a fan of McGeeney and felt he should have stayed, his failure to pick players like Mulhall was completely ridiculous. I can understand some fans' shortsightedness but managers are supposed to be better than that.

Anyway it is just completely boring droning on about the McGeeney era so back to the present. Have to say Saturday was worrying and not just for the flaws in our performance - particularly in defence. For me it also raised the wider question of whether we can now realistically compete with Dublin. Does their strength in depth and their massive resources mean they have now definitively left the rest of Leinster behind? Given that they were missing several key players I expected us to be close, yet they won pulling up. I mean, they were short their entire first choice attack and yet we still couldn't get within ten points of them! And when I talk about competing with them, I'm not talking about getting within five or six points, I'm talking about, y'know, actually beating them (something we used to do 14 or 15 years ago, believe it or not).

Unfortunately if it's a Kildare-Dublin Leinster final this year - and I think it will be - its hard to see anything other than us getting our arses handed to us again. As for next Sunday, hard to know what Ruan can do. Have to say apart from Fogarty for Tomas (who to be fair has been doing well), Sat's team was pretty close to the one I would have picked. Without going to a blanket defence, is it time to maybe look at playing a sweeper? Someone like Eamon Callaghan I think would be very good in that role. Looking at the players currently available - maybe Paul Cribbin could do it?

All I know is there needs to be a dramatic improvement in the defence over the next week, cos if there isn't, the likes of Keane, O'Donoghue and Walsh will make mince meat of us again. It really is a vital game - relegation would be a disaster. It was hard enough getting printed in the first place so we should be pulling out all the stops. If we were to go down, we could miss goodbye to any provincial title ambitions for the foreseeable future (which we may have to do anyway), and who knows when we'd we be back. Kerry kicked the shite out of Tyrone today so we'll have our work cut out.

Mystic Meg Stonecold.

I don't see us beating Kerry. If we lose to Kerry we are toast.

Derry will be a real test . Never had any real trouble beating them under McGeeney.

maybe the new system under jason ryan not suiting many of players should use swepper system for kerry match the kerry full forward are very fast we need to fouling sheehan will easy punish kildare