Dublin v Kildare

Baba and co, if ye can't see that leading Tyrone by five in injury time is better than them having the game killed off with 10 minutes to go and cantering to a six-point win, or that creating six goal chances and losing by 10 to Dublin is better than being 16 points down to them with a couple of minutes to go having created sweet f*** all, then I can't help ye.

You have a version of the past and an interpretation of the present that nothing will shake. I am a major McGeeney fan too, but I can see that he made a lot of mistakes. Two of the best forwards in the national league this weekend were James Kavanagh and Darroch Mulhall. McGeeney made no effort to keep the first and discarded the second, preferring to make us a laughing stock with the SJ fiasco. You give him credit for all the great things he did - and I'll always be grateful for those great days from 2009-11 - and ignore the bad.

The sad thing is ye have adopted a position that means you'll inevitably be proved right because at some stage Kildare are going to have a bad result or two. Lord knows you'll have a field day then, considering how mental ye've gone over two one-point losses to two of the best teams in the country. You're not even willing to give a team of promising young players a year or two to blossom, not willing to show patience and faith and, well, support.

I think we'll beat Kerry. I could be wrong. I think Kildare will do about as well this season as we did last season. I could be wrong. I think we'll gradually improve to the point where we'll be about All-Ireland semi-final standard in 2016/2017 and I think there'll be good and bad results along the way. I could be wrong. If I was able to predict the outcome of football matches I could quit my job and live off my Paddy Power account.

But I've no appetite to have a row about an Armagh selector after every single match between now and then. I'm already sick of it. I'm looking forward to discussing the matches but I'm not getting involved in Geezer this and Geezer that between now and then.

I hope we do well and I hope ye enjoy it.
I know we might not do well and if we don't sure at least ye'll enjoy some twisted satsifaction and get the chance to be hysterical on the internet, refusing to let go something that has been done and can never be undone.

And breathe. You are right about one thing and that's you will be wrong.

Great revisionism about Mulhall. He had chances before but his attitude was all wrong and so was dispensed with. He seems to matured and got his finger out. Good on him, But the way you are talking he is the second coming.

Ad for James Kavanagh, I don't think McGeeney dropped him once. Not sure what part of a new job a his wife being from Galway McGeeney could change. How come the fair lads and lassies in Ballymore that raised and developed him could not stop him from leaving. Straw clutching at its best and does your argument no favours.

The day I think a ten point defeat to any team is a good result will be the day I give up on football. Maybe your standards are just low and you accept that kind of thing.

Well said O2, I'm sick of the obsession with our former manager also. The best we can do for the team is to go to Conleths on Sunday and roar them on. Tomas O'Se mentioned how important the crowd was to Kerry today.
Right now I'm off to Cheltenham for the week so good luck with the forum this week, should be lively!

j

You're some man for a straw man argument. Not once have I said that Saturday was a good result. I'm saying it was a slight improvement on how we played last year.
If McGeeney was still manager, do you think we would have done better Saturday night? Do you think Mulhall would have been playing?
Also Kavanagh was dropped several times. Dogs on the street know him and McGeeney didn't see eye to eye. We were willing to move heaven and earth to get Johnston. If we made half the effort with Jimmers, then maybe we could have sorted something out. Lots of players with Connacht counties live in Dublin and are accomodated.

My choice for next week would be provided all are available and fit

Connolly with instruction to kick for distance to 11,12 or 1 o clock, one of the outfield players to call it and this needs to be done quickly

O Grady, Hyland, Murnahan
P Cribben, Whyte, F Conway
Moolick, O Neill with instruction not to be to far apart and when they win the ball feed the wing backs as much as possible and fill the vacancy when they bomb on

Hurley, D Flynn to tuck in slightly and be just ahead of the midfield
O Flaherty to play across the line ahead of Hurley and Flynn

Mulhall, O Connor, Mc Nally with the corner forwards to float but at least one of them to be no more than 20m from O Connor at any time preferably Muhall

That for what its worth is my pick

Ohtoohtobe wrote:

Baba and co, if ye can't see that leading Tyrone by five in injury time is better than them having the game killed off with 10 minutes to go and cantering to a six-point win, or that creating six goal chances and losing by 10 to Dublin is better than being 16 points down to them with a couple of minutes to go having created sweet f*** all, then I can't help ye.

You have a version of the past and an interpretation of the present that nothing will shake. I am a major McGeeney fan too, but I can see that he made a lot of mistakes. Two of the best forwards in the national league this weekend were James Kavanagh and Darroch Mulhall. McGeeney made no effort to keep the first and discarded the second, preferring to make us a laughing stock with the SJ fiasco. You give him credit for all the great things he did - and I'll always be grateful for those great days from 2009-11 - and ignore the bad.

The sad thing is ye have adopted a position that means you'll inevitably be proved right because at some stage Kildare are going to have a bad result or two. Lord knows you'll have a field day then, considering how mental ye've gone over two one-point losses to two of the best teams in the country. You're not even willing to give a team of promising young players a year or two to blossom, not willing to show patience and faith and, well, support.

I think we'll beat Kerry. I could be wrong. I think Kildare will do about as well this season as we did last season. I could be wrong. I think we'll gradually improve to the point where we'll be about All-Ireland semi-final standard in 2016/2017 and I think there'll be good and bad results along the way. I could be wrong. If I was able to predict the outcome of football matches I could quit my job and live off my Paddy Power account.

But I've no appetite to have a row about an Armagh selector after every single match between now and then. I'm already sick of it. I'm looking forward to discussing the matches but I'm not getting involved in Geezer this and Geezer that between now and then.

I hope we do well and I hope ye enjoy it.
I know we might not do well and if we don't sure at least ye'll enjoy some twisted satsifaction and get the chance to be hysterical on the internet, refusing to let go something that has been done and can never be undone.

+1

Baba O' Reily wrote:

Ad for James Kavanagh, I don't think McGeeney dropped him once.

Kavanagh was dropped from the team in 2011 before the Wicklow game. He was only a sub during the qualifiers for the away matches against Laois and Meath. He came back into the starting fifteen against Derry.

OK he dropped him once and was sub a couple of times. I said he was never dropped I'm wrong, no problem. You on the other hand said he left because of McGeeney. He didn't, but that didn't suit your argument. I expect you to confirm you were wrong.

There you go again, a slight improvement. Like ten point defeats are a good thing because they are not 13 or 16 point defeats. Possibly the worst point to base an argument around I've heard in a long time.

I doubt Mulhall would be playing because as I said he never had the right attitude. Why would McGeeney continue to try to get him to change when he wouldn't do it himself.

My argument is the same as it always has been unlike you and others like you, who change it to suit the circumstances. That shows me you are far from convinced about what you are saying.

Hey murof before you go, I'm still waiting on you showing me I insulted you. I said I would apologise, but I expect one in return if you can't show me where. If you are man enough of course.
.

ballyboy wrote:

My choice for next week would be provided all are available and fit  

Connolly with instruction to kick for distance to 11,12 or 1 o clock, one of the outfield players to call it and this needs to be done quickly  

O Grady, Hyland, Murnahan
P Cribben, Whyte, F Conway
Moolick, O Neill with instruction not to be to far apart and when they win the ball feed the wing backs as much as possible and fill the vacancy when they bomb on

Hurley, D Flynn to tuck in slightly and be just ahead of the midfield
O Flaherty to play across the line ahead of Hurley and Flynn

Mulhall, O Connor, Mc Nally with the corner forwards to float but at least one of them to be no more than 20m from O Connor at any time preferably Muhall  

That for what its worth is my pick

Would be harsh to drop Brophy surely ?

Walter, other than running Ryan out of town have you any constructive suggestions as to what we should change, which players should be picked next week, or anything at all that doesn't just hark back to the great Kieran?

Baba O' Reily wrote:

OK he dropped him once and was sub a couple of times. I said he was never dropped I'm wrong, no problem. You on the other hand said he left because of McGeeney. He didn't, but that didn't suit your argument. I expect you to confirm you were wrong.

There you go again, a slight improvement. Like ten point defeats are a good thing because they are not 13 or 16 point defeats. Possibly the worst point to base an argument around I've heard in a long time.

I doubt Mulhall would be playing because as I said he never had the right attitude. Why would McGeeney continue to try to get him to change when he wouldn't do it himself.

My argument is the same as it always has been unlike you and others like you, who change it to suit the circumstances. That shows me you are far from convinced about what you are saying.

Once more constructing your argument on stuff I never said. I didn't say Jimmers left because of McGeeney, I said no effort was made to keep him. For all I know he would have left anyway, just contrasting the effort to get SJ with the lack of effort to keep Kavanagh.
And once more just factually wrong. Scarcely a league campaign went by without Kavanagh being dropped.
Look this is going round in circles. You say results have nosedived, someone points out that Saturday wasn't quite as bad as last year's humiliations, you make out they're saying Saturday was a good result when they aren't and say they have a losing mentality.

I'm really going to avoid any more talk of Geezer. It's irrelevant. Good luck.

It was between him and McNally for the start, I went with Mc, he'd be coming on of course and I would hope Bolton, D Flynn are fit and I'd also be using Fogarty

Fair play to Jason Ryan, we are playing a nice brand of football. He is developing a system of play and the lads seem to know the system. There is evidence of an active competent manager on the side line and we are on a par and within a point of Mayo, Cork and Tyrone.

The score line against Dublin did not reflect the game, realistically Dublin were better by five or six points, they have won two of the last three All Ireland's and are a powerful brilliant team.

We are a young team, in a period of transition and if we have had taken one of the goal chances and stuck another one over the bar, the score would have reflected our relative position.

Crofter wrote:

Walter, other than running Ryan out of town have you any constructive suggestions as to what we should change, which players should be picked next week, or anything at all that doesn't just hark back to the great Kieran?

I asked Taibi a question earlier and I'll ask you that very same question.

Having been following Kildare since the 80's . Following them the length and breadth of the country let me just say not just the last 6/7 years when it became fashionable.

Do you think I want Jason Ryan to fail?!

He will fail. It will start with getting relegated from Division 1. The measure of failure is not lifting trophies by the way.  He simply won't match his predecessor for whom he replaced as we were under achieving.

But obviously I don't want any of the above to happen.

Ryan will be judged over the next 6-8 weeks in Kildare and it will have nothing to do with results. The club leagues starts in under 2 weeks.

Dublin pulled away in the last quarter getting some handy scores. However there are things that were improved on and areas where we can get more.
Flaherty is an excellent tracker and it doesn't take from his game so I would aim to give him the role marking the most attacking half back. The opposite for Hurley who might be better suited to centre forward coming onto the kick out like cork did with pierce o Neil.
I think we had more goal chances than they did and to beat them you would have to be taking those chances. McNally seems to lack a bit of self belief at the moment, for me he should have got two goals and could have had three. O Connor panicked a bit on the one on one and he should work on this he's not naturally gifted at finishing these type of opportunities but it's not something that can't be improved on.
Dublins rampaging midfield was not as evident as it was last year so in a tighter game they might feel pressure. If at 4points down we got a goal then the finish of the game would have been different. The 14th and 15th points for them were just painful all our own making and that was the end of it as a contest.

The amount of times we turned the ball without being under any great pressure was unreal. Players were handpassing the ball ahead of their teammate rather than to the chest and silly under 12 mistakes like that killed us.

Dublin were ready for us to block up the middle and most of their scores came from long ball into the full forward line and their inside line running at their men. O'Grady wasn't perfect but he certainly wasn't cleaned out like Foley and McGrillan were. Going with an inexperienced back-line of O'Grady, Campbell, Hyland, Murnaghan, Conway & Cribbin would be a gamble but continuing to pick Foley & McGrillan would do nothing for the management's credibility with the panel. For the last 6 matches, we have used by and large the same core group of players. If we were losing while experimenting it would be one thing but we are losing with a group playing together week in week out.

The last time we looked good defensively was when Aidan O'Rourke was a selector. If he gets the boot from Louth after the championship we should be straight on the phone asking him to come back. We have two former defenders as selectors and neither seem to be able to coach our defenders on tackling.

At midfield Dublin did what Mickey Harte didn't do and prepared for Hurley. Surely someone in the Kildare camp anticipated this. Once Hurley didn't get his own way early on he was anonymous. You can't be flaky like this against anyone never mind Dublin. They put Moolick out to do a man-marking job on MacAuley but MacAuley hasn't been great this year anyway so it seemed like a waste of time.

If there isn't a response and a bit of fight in the team next week then Ryan needs to seriously re-think what we're doing tactically and in terms of team selection. The match in Derry will be a good barometer of where we are. We haven't performed in our two away league matches. Someone mentioned our recent record against Derry. We were hammered up there in 08 and lost at home by 2 points in 2011 in the league. We won the others but pre-2010 our record against Derry was dreadful. The fact that we did well against them in the last few years may have said as much about them as us. Brian McIvor has them far better prepared this year. We'll have to be very good to win up there.

Whatever Team is picked, we need to improve our decision making and the use of the ball has to be better, ie our kick passing is shocking, our shooting in front of Goal was poor, our slow build up has to change.. One thing I noticed watching Matches and other Teams over the Weekend was the ball going into the inside Forwards is quick and accurate.. For me it dosent really matter who plays for the Dubs on the Full Forward line as the ball coming in is terrific.
For what its worth..

Connolly, O Grady, Campbell, Hylo, P Cribben, Chalkie, K Cribben (Bolton if fit), Moolick, Hurley, Dan Flynn, Brophy, Flats, Mulhall, Tomas, M Conway.

Dan to work back, and Mikey to roam out ( our best passer and playmaker), with Mulhall playing as close as to Tomas. Paddy at Centre Forward for His direct running ability..

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Watching Dublin on Saturday night I would think that to be successful in the modern day gaelic football world you require the "3 S's" Speed, Skill and Strength. Can we say that any of our players possess all 3 S's. We might have some that have 2 of them or unfortunately just one of them but I can not think of any of our players who have all 3 in their make up while most of the Dublin Team have got all 3 and lets just face it until we have the players who possess all 3 we will not be good enough no matter who the manager is.
Speed is natural
Skill comes from your natural ability and under age dedication
Strength can be worked on

Stonecold wrote:

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Therefore Jason Ryan must reach the last 8 minimum, am I correct in saying that?

Just in order to cut it?

StoneCold, there's a link between championship and league. Maybe not this season, but if we get relegated, it greatly affects next year's championship.

TotalGAA - not sure speed is totally natural. When James Horan took over Mayo he brought in a back-room team that included Ed Coughlan as strength and conditioning approach. He'd studied and done his masters in Liverpool on this area and one of the first things he did was teach the team how to run. Might sound crazy, but most do it technically wrong, which limits maneuverability and speed. Obviously you aren't going to get me to compete with Usain Bolt, but you can increase speed by important margins within top athletes.

While JR wasnt my choice originally, its far to early and far to unfair to be judging the Man on a hand full of competitve Games.. Looking at where Wexford have gone since His departure, leads me to believe that He can be a success with Kildare.. but like anything time will tell, and time is something we have to allow Him have.. He has to be allowed to mould and develop His own Team and style of Play.

Walter White wrote:

Stonecold wrote:

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Therefore Jason Ryan must reach the last 8 minimum, am I correct in saying that?

Just in order to cut it?

I want to see progress, we regressed the last 2 seasons, we have won this year exactly what was won the previous 2 seasons the O'Byrne cup. In terms of forwards and forward play I like what I'm seeing, to me the backs are easier fix than if it was a forward problem.

I don't ever want to see a Kildare team play (or just turn up) the way they did against Cork, Meath, Dublin & Tyrone in the previous 2 seasons. I think Jason is capable of instilling believe.