Dublin v Kildare

Whatever about Dublin and Cork, where there were issues of an ageing team (and don't forget how close we did actually get to Dublin in the previous regime), to say we just didn't turn up and hint we were taken apart by Meath and Tyrone isn't true. In both games until late and while Meath hurt, I left the Tyrone game last year feeling pretty decent about the effort of such a young team and that it was like 2008 again in terms of building, and that this year and next could be like 2009 and 2010.

TommyKeegan wrote:

Whatever about Dublin and Cork, where there were issues of an ageing team (and don't forget how close we did actually get to Dublin in the previous regime), to say we just didn't turn up and hint we were taken apart by Meath and Tyrone isn't true. In both games until late and while Meath hurt, I left the Tyrone game last year feeling pretty decent about the effort of such a young team and that it was like 2008 again in terms of building, and that this year and next could be like 2009 and 2010.

Dress it up whatever way you like Tommy, last 2 years we were trying to walk the ball over the bar. At least now we have 3 to 4 scoring forwards that can kick a point from beyond the 13 meter line.

Sometimes reading this forum is very funny and reeks of a lot of people who are fanatical about the Kildare team and the ideals of it and over analysis etc. etc.
A few 'realists' (in my opinion) have picked up on the fact that the team that started is just not good enough to beat Dublin (not this year and not last year)
In simple terms the goalkeeper is very limited with poor kick outs and lacks the judgement of a top class keeper, we had nearly 30% of our starting team from JTB who are the perennial underachievers and bottlers but are great trainers with great skills etc., the corner forward who actually done well is more known for bottling it and we have 2 guys in the full back line that were great for Kildare on their day but won't survive the new game styles emerging this year from the new rules. Probably a bit tough on the JTB players.
So my friends i ask you where are the winners in that team, where are the guys that hate loosing, where are the guys that you want on your side when you are 3 points down going into injury time in the Championship and you know will do anything (and i mean anything) to win or win they just accept defeat ?
In my opinion (and opinions on here are not worth anything) there was probably 10players that started on Sat night that i wouldn't like to be facing that scenario with and are plain and simple just not good enough - lets be realistic here.

micky murphy wrote:

Sometimes reading this forum is very funny and reeks of a lot of people who are fanatical about the Kildare team and the ideals of it and over analysis etc. etc.
A few 'realists' (in my opinion) have picked up on the fact that the team that started is just not good enough to beat Dublin (not this year and not last year)
In simple terms the goalkeeper is very limited with poor kick outs and lacks the judgement of a top class keeper, we had nearly 30% of our starting team from JTB who are the perennial underachievers and bottlers but are great trainers with great skills etc., the corner forward who actually done well is more known for bottling it and we have 2 guys in the full back line that were great for Kildare on their day but won't survive the new game styles emerging this year from the new rules. Probably a bit tough on the JTB players.
So my friends i ask you where are the winners in that team, where are the guys that hate loosing, where are the guys that you want on your side when you are 3 points down going into injury time in the Championship and you know will do anything (and i mean anything) to win or win they just accept defeat ?
In my opinion (and opinions on here are not worth anything) there was probably 10players that started on Sat night that i wouldn't like to be facing that scenario with and are plain and simple just not good enough - lets be realistic here.

That takes management, coaching, tactics and improvement clean out of the equation and that's why those things are vital thus who your manager is and who he selects around him are vital. Kildare couldn't beat Wicklow in 2008 yet were just about as good as Dublin within 12 months and could well have won a Leinster title in 2009 and 2010 and been in an All Ireland final in 2010 such was the level we operated at. I'm not getting into it again, but that sums up why people here are annoyed at the change of management I believe. As I said above, last year was our 2008 again, ie first year with a new team and to not give a guy who had brought us to huge heights once another go is baffling. And it's why Ryan is being scrutinised so closely. Call it unfair but he knew what he was getting into and am sure he factored this into his decision.

No one's taken up the point I raised so I'll throw it out there again - can we realistically expect to compete with Dublin at this point in time or do their strength in depth and resources make it a futile exercise? You'd have to say given that they were shorn of their entire first choice attack on Sat and still hockeyed us, that they are simply too far ahead at the moment. Can we expect to reach their level in a few years? You'd like to think so but there's a big gap to make up.

I'd say he'l cope TK and hopefully be at least as successful as his predecessor

HauntedGraffiti wrote:

No one's taken up the point I raised so I'll throw it out there again - can we realistically expect to compete with Dublin at this point in time or do their strength in depth and resources make it a futile exercise? You'd have to say given that they were shorn of their entire first choice attack on Sat and still hockeyed us, that they are simply too far ahead at the moment. Can we expect to reach their level in a few years? You'd like to think so but there's a big gap to make up.

To try and go toe to toe with Dublin the way Dublin play you'd want to be mad. Its about developing your own system and style and having a plan B. Dublin system works for them and they are ruthless in attack. They've never been chasing too many games, ourselves have to work hard to contain them to be in with a chance. But we seen Saturday they can be opened up very easily but suckered us countless times with the counter attack and needless mistakes.

Stonecold wrote:

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Well the predecessor got to the league semi-final, although ultimately, that proved, as you say to be irrelevant - which is what I've been saying forever and a day which makes the current hoopla amusing to say the least. You are spot on, it's championship that he will be judged on and surely, given how last year went, he'll get more than one championship.

When you're playing teams that are at a different level than you, that are better than you, even if it's in the league you're playing them, when they are various stages of preparation, your frailties get highlighted much more than if you're playing teams in and around your level. This is what people wanted, playing amongst four of five of the top teams in the country but they don't seem to have the stomach for what it exposes. Which is that Kildare aren't at that level. Yet. That comes as no surprise and wanting it to be different doesn't make it different. This is a new team at the start of its development - well, in its second year of development really, but with a new manager, it's a new start.

Identifying flaws is easy - they've been pretty much the same for a while. But without magic wands, solutions aren't always possible. Eg, kickouts. People were giving out about Connolly kicking it long down the middle all the time two years ago. Last year, they tried to change it. Mark Donnellan was brought in for that reason. But the results were mixed and he's not as strong in the air as Connolly, and Connolly is by far the superior shot-stopper. You have to work with what you have. And when you're Kildare, you can afford absolutely no injuries. There are some lads not in form at the moment, but there is a lack of depth defensively, particularly with injuries. 120 players have been looked at. This is what you have. Hopefully, when everyone is back and in full fitness, they can have everyone back. But obviously, if you employ sweepers or two extra men back, that will impact sharply on the other end of the field.

Everyone knows I thought it was utter folly to get rid of McGeeney (I'm an apologist, I'm told) but the ongoing argument is so sad, predictable and boring, on both sides, because it's either I told you the whole thing would go to rack and ruin or, that useless Armagh bollix. I don't know what purpose it serves. It's 1921 all over again. Just try to be realistic and get behind the team. Analyse it properly, don't just see what you want to to suit your argument. Jason Ryan is a good coach. Like every manager from Zeus to Mick O'Dwyer to Kevin Heffernan to Brian Cody to Seán Boylan to Kieran McGeeney, he'll get things wrong. But no more than Kieran McGeeney, he's not Jesus Christ either.

The U21 thread was just hilarious... how people could somehow link McGeeney's departure to that, and how people could compare last year's U21 team to this year's... well, I don't see it. As Ruby Walsh said about Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins, chalk and cheese. Thank God for Cheltenham.

Please please stop refering to the 'great' Kieran McGeeney he should have left after 3 years with his head held high and not clung in because Dublin or Armagh wouldn't give him their jobs.
Sure Micko was more successful going on the arguments about McGeeney sure why not bring Micko back where were all these people when he left?? it was Micko's time to leave and it was McGeeneys time to leave - Sat night didn't happen because Kieran left, we could have lost by double that we will never know.....
Move on people apart from the seniors which is the Nr 1 team why are people not wondering how after putting so much into Youth Development and Development Squads that we are developing a lot of players that think they are celebrities and lack the hunger, desire, leadership qualities, mental strength and ruthlessness required to be a top class intercounty footballer??

I was one who argued that things had gone stale under McGeeney and that it was time for a change. However, I accept TK's point that he had begun the rebuilding process last year. If anything there was probably a stronger case for replacing McGeeney at the end of 2012 in the aftermath of the Seanie Johnston saga and some disappointing championship displays.

Whatever people's opinions on McGeeney, it's crazy to be making judgements on Ryan after four league games, three of which were decided by only a single point. The defensive side of things is a big concern but it has to be pointed out that he has not had a full deck to pick from here. That has provided opportunities for O'Grady, Murnaghan and Conway who have shown some promise. This should ensure that there should be enough competition when Kelly, Lyons, Doyle and Bolton are back fit to fashion some sort of a decent rearguard - certainly an improvement on what we have currently. Relegation would be a blow but we still have a fighting chance of staying up. The next two games are tough but Kildare are well capable of taking 4-6 points between here and April. We will have a far clearer picture of where we stand once Ryan has been given some time to put his own stamp on things. That process takes longer than two or three months.

HauntedGraffiti wrote:

No one's taken up the point I raised so I'll throw it out there again - can we realistically expect to compete with Dublin at this point in time or do their strength in depth and resources make it a futile exercise? You'd have to say given that they were shorn of their entire first choice attack on Sat and still hockeyed us, that they are simply too far ahead at the moment. Can we expect to reach their level in a few years? You'd like to think so but there's a big gap to make up.

An issue I've looked at closely over a number of years (this doesn't excuse the weekend as they were missing their entire attack and many of their chances and scores came from our mistakes) and really believe no. I've based this on three things. Money, numbers and coaches/facilities. One or two of them on their own makes difference but at a time where GAA is now science rather than sweat like when Paidi could work a lesser team into a frenzy and stun a better side, having all three in place changes the game completely. Worse again, there is exponential growth. Winning will lead to more money, will lead to more players with better coaches from a younger age, will lead to more winning and so on. I get when people say here that we need to get our own house in order and that is true. But even, as a huge county in our own right, we did everything Dublin did, the gap would still become greater over time. It's my belief the Leinster Championship has slowly become redundant, that will continue, but it's also my belief that it'll get to a stage over the coming years where no one can compete with Dublin. Already the smaller counties have lost interest (many Carlow under-21s stopped returning calls from their selectors when they drew Dublin), but that will become more and more common. Having a side with most of the money, most of the players and most of everything else isn't good for a sport.

Jaysus Tommy, you make it sound unusual that Carlow struggled to get their best football team out!

Ogie wrote:

Stonecold wrote:

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Well the predecessor got to the league semi-final, although ultimately, that proved, as you say to be irrelevant - which is what I've been saying forever and a day which makes the current hoopla amusing to say the least. You are spot on, it's championship that he will be judged on and surely, given how last year went, he'll get more than one championship.

When you're playing teams that are at a different level than you, that are better than you, even if it's in the league you're playing them, when they are various stages of preparation, your frailties get highlighted much more than if you're playing teams in and around your level. This is what people wanted, playing amongst four of five of the top teams in the country but they don't seem to have the stomach for what it exposes. Which is that Kildare aren't at that level. Yet. That comes as no surprise and wanting it to be different doesn't make it different. This is a new team at the start of its development - well, in its second year of development really, but with a new manager, it's a new start.

Identifying flaws is easy - they've been pretty much the same for a while. But without magic wands, solutions aren't always possible. Eg, kickouts. People were giving out about Connolly kicking it long down the middle all the time two years ago. Last year, they tried to change it. Mark Donnellan was brought in for that reason. But the results were mixed and he's not as strong in the air as Connolly, and Connolly is by far the superior shot-stopper. You have to work with what you have. And when you're Kildare, you can afford absolutely no injuries. There are some lads not in form at the moment, but there is a lack of depth defensively, particularly with injuries. 120 players have been looked at. This is what you have. Hopefully, when everyone is back and in full fitness, they can have everyone back. But obviously, if you employ sweepers or two extra men back, that will impact sharply on the other end of the field.

Everyone knows I thought it was utter folly to get rid of McGeeney (I'm an apologist, I'm told) but the ongoing argument is so sad, predictable and boring, on both sides, because it's either I told you the whole thing would go to rack and ruin or, that useless Armagh bollix. I don't know what purpose it serves. It's 1921 all over again. Just try to be realistic and get behind the team. Analyse it properly, don't just see what you want to to suit your argument. Jason Ryan is a good coach. Like every manager from Zeus to Mick O'Dwyer to Kevin Heffernan to Brian Cody to Seán Boylan to Kieran McGeeney, he'll get things wrong. But no more than Kieran McGeeney, he's not Jesus Christ either.

The U21 thread was just hilarious... how people could somehow link McGeeney's departure to that, and how people could compare last year's U21 team to this year's... well, I don't see it. As Ruby Walsh said about Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins, chalk and cheese. Thank God for Cheltenham.

In my case it's not that I want to have a go at Ryan or anything else, but if things go wrong, I'd like to remember what happened so that those who made the decisions aren't in a position to f**k up again. Learning from mistakes is key and if it does all go downhill from here, the least we can take from it at some convention down the line is to remind these people of past mistakes when making key future decisions.

Ogie wrote:

Jaysus Tommy, you make it sound unusual that Carlow struggled to get their best football team out!

I can't prove any of that but with time. And it's started. They never capitalised on their advantage before because the game was less money-driven and scienftific and secondly they were all over the place. Those two factors have changed and just look at their success across the board at all ages and look at what they are producing. People can say you can only put 15 players on the park, but you can identify a better prospect younger, have more of these prospects, give them more time and more coaching, have them in an environment where there is more competition, give them financial benefits other counties could never do, and play all their games at home. If you didn't know Gaelic games, wandered into a game and were told those list of facts, someone from abroad would laugh at the sport. People say they need more money because they've more people. That is rubbish, if anything a county with less people needs more money than them to balance out.

Good reading Ogie.. You say that 120 Players were looked at, and I dont disagree with Your knowledge.. So from that 120 we have unearthed, what ?, Darroch ? Murnahan ? , is that it ? .. I see Paudi coming on Saturday Night, and trying His age old failing of Kicking the ball, help us... Jez surely after developing Underage Squads for the last number of Years, theres a few more out there???

The voice of sanity Ogie.

I've found myself trying to tread both sides of a particularly sharp barbed wire fence re the manager. I'm on the record as violently opposing the last lad's removal (I've forgotten his name). It reeked of insanity, particularly when it was clear that it was something of a lucky dip who we got to replace him. As it happened Ryan was about as good an option as any out there. Since he's come in I've tried to watch and analyse from a neutral standpoint rather than take the easy option of slagging Ryan off as soon as something goes wrong. As rightly pointed out the raw materials available are questionable in some cases - and I agree with the earlier comment that there's a mental frailty, particularly v Dublin, that needs a strong, inspirational manager to overcome. The last lad (whatever his name was) seemed to be getting to grips with us psychologically but only to a point, and as the near misses piled up I think he lost a bit of mistique with the players.

So where are we now? What's done is done. He who shall not be named is back where he probably feels wanted, and seems to be helping them get their act together. Meanwhile we are a very young team by and large with a new manager who has done a decent job of improving both our midfield and attacking play. He is attempting to learn from the current trends in the game by emphasising fast, direct, attacking play with wing backs not afraid to get forward. He has problems defensively though it is churlish of anyone to ignore the clear loss of form of two experienced players and a significant injury list. The manager is doing plenty right - he may not be getting too many breaks (you make your own luck anyway), but it's far too early to consign him to the bin as some are doing.

It's a long season and while relegation would be a big deal and a significant blow that Kildare can afford less than some other counties more used to success, it is ultimately about the Championship. Beat Louth/Westmeath and Meath and we are into the last 12 and Ryan will have out performed yer man's last 4 Leinster campaigns. That doesn't look beyond the realms of possibility.

SeamusMurphy wrote:

Good reading Ogie.. You say that 120 Players were looked at, and I dont disagree with Your knowledge.. So from that 120 we have unearthed, what ?, Darroch ? Murnahan ? , is that it ? .. I see Paudi coming on Saturday Night, and trying His age old failing of Kicking the ball, help us... Jez surely after developing Underage Squads for the last number of Years, theres a few more out there???

Don't take that as gospel Seamus, that's a figure I saw somewhere, I haven't covered Kildare as much in the last two years. But there was a training panel of 60-ish and that was after every club in the county was invited U12-style to send in any player they thought was good enough for trials in the biggest PR stunt I ever saw (and it worked too, fair play - lessons learned).

There are plenty to come through but not for the first time, people think that every lad that was good at minor or U21 will make the step up. Doesn't happen in Kerry, never mind Kildare. But hopefully Chris Healy and Mark Sherry might. What we seem to need right now though are one are two proper backs, dirty, mean, up-your-arse and in-your-ear bastards. There's probably one in the squad right now and he's not fit. You need more than one.

Have to say, I'd be criticising a lot of lads before I'd be criticising a man that has been played out of position for much of his Kildare career but bursts his balls regardless.

But in a sport like ours with no transfer market, don't you judge present levels by the past? And if you forget past mistakes, then no good can come of them. As I said above, I hope Ryan is a huge success, but if he isn't rather than say ah, the last lad was better, he tried his best, what's next, I'd like those who made the decision back in the autumn to be remembered and pressured and reminded, so that maybe they won't be as thick next time. Surely that's fair enough and sensible.

TommyKeegan wrote:

Ogie wrote:

Stonecold wrote:

Jason Ryan will and should be judged, like his predecessor, on championship, last 2 seasons his predecessor didn't cut it on any level.

Well the predecessor got to the league semi-final, although ultimately, that proved, as you say to be irrelevant - which is what I've been saying forever and a day which makes the current hoopla amusing to say the least. You are spot on, it's championship that he will be judged on and surely, given how last year went, he'll get more than one championship.

When you're playing teams that are at a different level than you, that are better than you, even if it's in the league you're playing them, when they are various stages of preparation, your frailties get highlighted much more than if you're playing teams in and around your level. This is what people wanted, playing amongst four of five of the top teams in the country but they don't seem to have the stomach for what it exposes. Which is that Kildare aren't at that level. Yet. That comes as no surprise and wanting it to be different doesn't make it different. This is a new team at the start of its development - well, in its second year of development really, but with a new manager, it's a new start.

Identifying flaws is easy - they've been pretty much the same for a while. But without magic wands, solutions aren't always possible. Eg, kickouts. People were giving out about Connolly kicking it long down the middle all the time two years ago. Last year, they tried to change it. Mark Donnellan was brought in for that reason. But the results were mixed and he's not as strong in the air as Connolly, and Connolly is by far the superior shot-stopper. You have to work with what you have. And when you're Kildare, you can afford absolutely no injuries. There are some lads not in form at the moment, but there is a lack of depth defensively, particularly with injuries. 120 players have been looked at. This is what you have. Hopefully, when everyone is back and in full fitness, they can have everyone back. But obviously, if you employ sweepers or two extra men back, that will impact sharply on the other end of the field.

Everyone knows I thought it was utter folly to get rid of McGeeney (I'm an apologist, I'm told) but the ongoing argument is so sad, predictable and boring, on both sides, because it's either I told you the whole thing would go to rack and ruin or, that useless Armagh bollix. I don't know what purpose it serves. It's 1921 all over again. Just try to be realistic and get behind the team. Analyse it properly, don't just see what you want to to suit your argument. Jason Ryan is a good coach. Like every manager from Zeus to Mick O'Dwyer to Kevin Heffernan to Brian Cody to Seán Boylan to Kieran McGeeney, he'll get things wrong. But no more than Kieran McGeeney, he's not Jesus Christ either.

The U21 thread was just hilarious... how people could somehow link McGeeney's departure to that, and how people could compare last year's U21 team to this year's... well, I don't see it. As Ruby Walsh said about Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins, chalk and cheese. Thank God for Cheltenham.

In my case it's not that I want to have a go at Ryan or anything else, but if things go wrong, I'd like to remember what happened so that those who made the decisions aren't in a position to f**k up again. Learning from mistakes is key and if it does all go downhill from here, the least we can take from it at some convention down the line is to remind these people of past mistakes when making key future decisions.

Agree entirely with that Tommy, I just think there is a little more evidence required and I don't see that it has gone wrong yet. Kildare were relegated in McGeeney's first year too and lost to Wicklow in the first round of the championship. I know what a lot of people thought of him at that juncture!! The point being, one year is not enough.

there's always hope HG but to beat Dublin at the moment we would cut out the errors and get the breaks on the day

Ogie wrote:

What we seem to need right now though are one are two proper backs, dirty, mean, up-your-arse and in-your-ear bastards. There's probably one in the squad right now and he's not fit. You need more than one.

This the type of player that we just don't seem to produce through the development squads. Apart from Peter Kelly, we haven't brought one through since McLoughlin and he was u21 ten years ago. We have had some fine full back players like Foley, McGrillen and Lyons but they are all more footballing types who would probably prefer to be further out the field rather than spoilers. I expect Hyland will prove to be similar to those three in that he can do a job in the full back line but would be more effective as a half back. O'Grady has shown some promise but it is early days.

Why isn't the development squad system producing those sticky corner back types whose modus operandi is to spoil every fancy Dan corner forward's day? If you look at the Kildare team on Saturday, most of those lads graduated straight from u21 to the senior ranks. The days of the late developing type who blossoms in his mid twenties and is battle hardened from the club scene appear to be on the way out. For all the nice skillful footballers that are produced through the development squad system, are there enough hardy lads who can stop opponents playing despite being more limited skillwise being considered? Is it a case that the best and most skillful footballers are being selected at u14, u16 and minor level and then being converted into defenders?

Some good posts there. But I would be worried. Losing stings but supporting Kildare the edge gets taken off it after the first 10 years or so following them, you somehow get desensitised to it.

What I'm worried about is becoming noncompetitive again. It only takes a few poor decisons and a couple of months of things going against you to be back among the pack. The problem is it could take years to get back what a couple of months cost you. That's why staying up is vital.

The issue I had with Saturday night is not with the defeat (that was expected) it was the manner in which we allowed it to happen. When you are faced with superior attack you must have a a plan to neutralise the oppositions strength. We didn't have any plan to counteract the Dublin style, instead we again tried toe to toe. To quote the film the Untouchables, "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight".
I'm no manager but I would have hoped to see a style that could frustrate Dublin. Instead we gave them the game before a we took the field.

The players cannot be absolved of blame either. Some are way out of form others wilted when they needed to stand up and be counted. The lads that are out of form I would not worry about as they have shown in the past they have the fight in them and form is temporary. It's the other lads who disappeared when the going got tough I would have serious concerns about. You need to rely on players to get stuck in and give everything for the cause. There are a few lads there I would not want to be in the trenches with.

The Kerry game will show me who has the desire and fight. If lads hide and shirk responsibility in such an important game, they have no place playing football for Kildare.

TommyKeegan wrote:

But in a sport like ours with no transfer market, don't you judge present levels by the past? And if you forget past mistakes, then no good can come of them. As I said above, I hope Ryan is a huge success, but if he isn't rather than say ah, the last lad was better, he tried his best, what's next, I'd like those who made the decision back in the autumn to be remembered and pressured and reminded, so that maybe they won't be as thick next time. Surely that's fair enough and sensible.

TK that could be said every year since 1928. We all know things won't change.

Rex wrote:

TommyKeegan wrote:

But in a sport like ours with no transfer market, don't you judge present levels by the past? And if you forget past mistakes, then no good can come of them. As I said above, I hope Ryan is a huge success, but if he isn't rather than say ah, the last lad was better, he tried his best, what's next, I'd like those who made the decision back in the autumn to be remembered and pressured and reminded, so that maybe they won't be as thick next time. Surely that's fair enough and sensible.

TK that could be said every year since 1928. We all know things won't change.

That just depressed me more than any result. We could do a Kiev on Newbridge!

kickingking wrote:

Ogie wrote:

What we seem to need right now though are one are two proper backs, dirty, mean, up-your-arse and in-your-ear bastards. There's probably one in the squad right now and he's not fit. You need more than one.

This the type of player that we just don't seem to produce through the development squads. Apart from Peter Kelly, we haven't brought one through since McLoughlin and he was u21 ten years ago. We have had some fine full back players like Foley, McGrillen and Lyons but they are all more footballing types who would probably prefer to be further out the field rather than spoilers. I expect Hyland will prove to be similar to those three in that he can do a job in the full back line but would be more effective as a half back. O'Grady has shown some promise but it is early days.

Why isn't the development squad system producing those sticky corner back types whose modus operandi is to spoil every fancy Dan corner forward's day? If you look at the Kildare team on Saturday, most of those lads graduated straight from u21 to the senior ranks. The days of the late developing type who blossoms in his mid twenties and is battle hardened from the club scene appear to be on the way out. For all the nice skillful footballers that are produced through the development squad system, are there enough hardy lads who can stop opponents playing despite being more limited skillwise being considered? Is it a case that the best and most skillful footballers are being selected at u14, u16 and minor level and then being converted into defenders?

Thats a rubbish statement what difference does it make if a lad is a dirty b*stard or squeky clean as long as he keeps his man out of the game. I dont remember Bernard Brogan, Paddy McBrearty or Colm O'Neill who are considered the best in the country getting too many scores off Lyons or Kelly over the last couple of years and they are two completely different markers. The problem is neither are fit.